Israel Hezbollah prisoner swap.
- Thread starter weltweit
- Start date
Weltweit: Indeed. All the grabage about "Israel invading Lebanon" and this is what it comes down to: Certain groups wish to exterminate Israel and its People.
We knew they were dead long ago but of course out of respect for the families it was never broached publicly. Certain things are taboo in Isrqael. Americans and others talk about "never leave a soldier behind" but it is mere rhetoric and lip service. Israel has, in the very recent past, both publicly and not publicly traded many prisoners for just small human remains.
I do not think people know it but in battle we have religious Jews who follow us and bag all soil with blood in it and try to return it to its owner because our faith calls for burial with every organic part. A nation that goes to that extreme for its people is special.
I pray those 2 soldiers rest well and I also pray we capture the 5 dogs again and exact true justice finally.
Of the 5? My favorite was Koontahr. He was the genius who invaded the home of a young Israeli Jewish family and bashed its (I believe the age was) 7 year old child against the cement to brain it, as the child's mom and 2 year old daughter hid in a crawl space. The mom was so scared that she pressed the 2 year old to her breast to keep the cries from giving away their hiding space and the 2 year old was smothered. Niiiiice. Hope he is eating a nice big plate of hummus and blood right now.
We knew they were dead long ago but of course out of respect for the families it was never broached publicly. Certain things are taboo in Isrqael. Americans and others talk about "never leave a soldier behind" but it is mere rhetoric and lip service. Israel has, in the very recent past, both publicly and not publicly traded many prisoners for just small human remains.
I do not think people know it but in battle we have religious Jews who follow us and bag all soil with blood in it and try to return it to its owner because our faith calls for burial with every organic part. A nation that goes to that extreme for its people is special.
I pray those 2 soldiers rest well and I also pray we capture the 5 dogs again and exact true justice finally.
Of the 5? My favorite was Koontahr. He was the genius who invaded the home of a young Israeli Jewish family and bashed its (I believe the age was) 7 year old child against the cement to brain it, as the child's mom and 2 year old daughter hid in a crawl space. The mom was so scared that she pressed the 2 year old to her breast to keep the cries from giving away their hiding space and the 2 year old was smothered. Niiiiice. Hope he is eating a nice big plate of hummus and blood right now.
Ahhh, you mentioned that scum in your sourced article. My apology.
As far as the "victory." Hezbollah always does that. Israel leaving the Leabnese Security Zone in 2000 was a "victory" and the IDF "ran for its life." The 2006 War was a "victory" because Hezbollah was not exterminated. It is just the usual propganda nonsense.
I watched the vidoe feed of the exchange (have an Israeli and also Mid-East package on cable here) and it was sickening to see Hezbollah in their fake uniforms (which of course they can never manage to wear when taking "military" action), with a grass band and yellow banners singing Shia songs.
The 5, including 1 "Palestinian" born in Lebanon are now going to be lauded as heroes by Lebanese Shia but most Lebanese see the event for what it truly is. Even I was a bit suprised at the feelings expressed by Lebanese from all abckgrounds. I have yet to see Arabic meda (which is the largest source of information for me) report on it but many Lebanese in Western sources expressed admiration and sympathy for Israel and were peeved at Hezbollah.
Most commentary was along the lines of "Poor Israel and Israelis, allowed to hope that the 2 were alive and only when seeing their black coffins were they allowed to face the truth. Shame. Hezbollah calls it a victory but all itis is more Hezbollah games."
There are always Arabs who hold different viewpoints but in report after report after report the reaction was much the same.
The EU is sick. Calling Hezbollah a valid political entity is like calling Hitler a humanitarian. Its Charter calls for extermination. Its edicts call for the same. Its offencive actions against Israel over the course of decades makes their call for "Resistance": nothing mroe than a sick and ignorant joke.
As far as the "victory." Hezbollah always does that. Israel leaving the Leabnese Security Zone in 2000 was a "victory" and the IDF "ran for its life." The 2006 War was a "victory" because Hezbollah was not exterminated. It is just the usual propganda nonsense.
I watched the vidoe feed of the exchange (have an Israeli and also Mid-East package on cable here) and it was sickening to see Hezbollah in their fake uniforms (which of course they can never manage to wear when taking "military" action), with a grass band and yellow banners singing Shia songs.
The 5, including 1 "Palestinian" born in Lebanon are now going to be lauded as heroes by Lebanese Shia but most Lebanese see the event for what it truly is. Even I was a bit suprised at the feelings expressed by Lebanese from all abckgrounds. I have yet to see Arabic meda (which is the largest source of information for me) report on it but many Lebanese in Western sources expressed admiration and sympathy for Israel and were peeved at Hezbollah.
Most commentary was along the lines of "Poor Israel and Israelis, allowed to hope that the 2 were alive and only when seeing their black coffins were they allowed to face the truth. Shame. Hezbollah calls it a victory but all itis is more Hezbollah games."
There are always Arabs who hold different viewpoints but in report after report after report the reaction was much the same.
The EU is sick. Calling Hezbollah a valid political entity is like calling Hitler a humanitarian. Its Charter calls for extermination. Its edicts call for the same. Its offencive actions against Israel over the course of decades makes their call for "Resistance": nothing mroe than a sick and ignorant joke.
elbows
Well-Known Member
No its not like calling Hitler a humanitarian. Its simply a position that takes into account the large role that Hezbollah plays in Lebanese political life. In practice, the EU recognising them as terrorists wont solve the problems or end the bloodletting. Removing the pretext for Hezbollah to do shitty things, for example by getting a UN presence in disputed border regions, will achieve more.
Peace will not be based on the eradication of groups you hate, but on creating a situation where violence is relegated to an extremely small minority, and the groups with larger support, having given up violent struggle, go mainstream.
Elbows: "The EU position on Hezbollah is simply taking into account the large role Hezbollah plays in Lebanese politics.": No. That is not a rationlisation. Hezbollah meets all definitions of a terrorist organisation. Whether or not it alo has a political arm is neither here nor there.
Terrorism remains a crime under International Law. In fact, Hezbollah's very existence is a direct violation of Lebanon's own law. The wold saw how everyone but Lebanese Shia felt when the county almost sank back into Civil War with the Telecom Crisis there.
Ergo, Hezbolah is not even representative of the nation, let alone a valid political organisation. One cannot even offr it the ratonalisaton used by friends of HAMAS (that because of its vast majority in elections it represents the bulk of society). IF the EU refuses to recognise HAMAS, how dos it recognise Hezbollah?
"In practice, the EU not recognising Hezbollah becauseof its terrorist status will not end the bloodletting,etc.": Who cares? The EU is violting International Law? There is right, and there is wrong. There is also a whole lot of gea but in this particular case it is cut and dry.
Is Hezbollah terrorist? Terrorism generaly being defined as the use of violence both physical and mental arbitrarily used asgainst non-combatants to achievepolitica objectives. IF this applies to Hezbollah, and of course it does, there is no argument.
You cannot pick and choose with regards to the issue. Next time ETA bombs someone in Spain, or some Muslim bombs London, they should not whine. You pet pitbulls do not cry when bitten.
"Getting the UN to seployin disputed border regions could negatealot of the pretext involved...": Except that the UN is not only ineffectie, especially UNIFIL (the arm in southern Lebanon), it has actually aided Hezbollah in acts of terrorism. It also has not done shi& bout meeting its Mandate so I would naturally disagree with you.
Place UNIFIL in Sheba'a? What wold THAT accomplish?
"Violence will be eradicated by having groups go mainstream.": I believe you already implied that Hezbollah has done so by mentioning its political apparattus. It accomplished nothing.
Weltweit: Well, we do take recoery of very part of our men as I said. BUT, of the 3 figures in power, in Israel, during that war, only Olmert as of yet remains untouched. The other 2 paid for their miscalculations and are ruined. Many wantd Olmert out for awhile, his corruption probe added to it, and now I do believe his day are very numbered.
It is not so much the disparity in people traded, it is that the live eople traded all are horrendoudly evil people and this is what is causing much of the uproar.
Terrorism remains a crime under International Law. In fact, Hezbollah's very existence is a direct violation of Lebanon's own law. The wold saw how everyone but Lebanese Shia felt when the county almost sank back into Civil War with the Telecom Crisis there.
Ergo, Hezbolah is not even representative of the nation, let alone a valid political organisation. One cannot even offr it the ratonalisaton used by friends of HAMAS (that because of its vast majority in elections it represents the bulk of society). IF the EU refuses to recognise HAMAS, how dos it recognise Hezbollah?
"In practice, the EU not recognising Hezbollah becauseof its terrorist status will not end the bloodletting,etc.": Who cares? The EU is violting International Law? There is right, and there is wrong. There is also a whole lot of gea but in this particular case it is cut and dry.
Is Hezbollah terrorist? Terrorism generaly being defined as the use of violence both physical and mental arbitrarily used asgainst non-combatants to achievepolitica objectives. IF this applies to Hezbollah, and of course it does, there is no argument.
You cannot pick and choose with regards to the issue. Next time ETA bombs someone in Spain, or some Muslim bombs London, they should not whine. You pet pitbulls do not cry when bitten.
"Getting the UN to seployin disputed border regions could negatealot of the pretext involved...": Except that the UN is not only ineffectie, especially UNIFIL (the arm in southern Lebanon), it has actually aided Hezbollah in acts of terrorism. It also has not done shi& bout meeting its Mandate so I would naturally disagree with you.
Place UNIFIL in Sheba'a? What wold THAT accomplish?
"Violence will be eradicated by having groups go mainstream.": I believe you already implied that Hezbollah has done so by mentioning its political apparattus. It accomplished nothing.
Weltweit: Well, we do take recoery of very part of our men as I said. BUT, of the 3 figures in power, in Israel, during that war, only Olmert as of yet remains untouched. The other 2 paid for their miscalculations and are ruined. Many wantd Olmert out for awhile, his corruption probe added to it, and now I do believe his day are very numbered.
It is not so much the disparity in people traded, it is that the live eople traded all are horrendoudly evil people and this is what is causing much of the uproar.
teqniq
DisMembered
weltweit
Well-Known Member
Yes, its a good article.
It does seem amazing to me each side keeping the bodies of their enemies war dead unburied so long. I mean Israel had 200 Lebannese dead unburied, where were they keeping them?
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
And urbanites are so easily confused. Thanks for this display of paternal concern and caring.
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
That's okay, son. Don't do anything I wouldn't.
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
Friend, I do things that you wouldn't do, all the time.
....actually, don't mind me today. Too hot. Not enough sleep. Crabby.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
I won't do Olmert's credibility any good. In fact, it's already added more voices to the growing chorus calling for his resignation. Olmert is a dead man walking - politically speaking.
Andy the Don
Wise men say only fools..
The girl Samir Qantar murdered by bashing her brains out with a rifle butt after forcing her arms from protecting her head was four years old. Qantar having had just murdered the girls father. Some hero, obviously deserving the hero's welcome he received from the Hezbollah leadership.
Spion
I hear ya
They're like slaves who learn bad habits from their masters. Israel honours the people and organisations who carried out bombings of civilian targets and massacres such as Deir Yassin, in some cases making them prime minister
Andy the Don
Wise men say only fools..
Hezbollah captures two live prisoners and returns two corpses. Qantar whilst in an Israeli prison completes a degree from Jerusalem Open university and is allowed to marry. No side in this conflict can claim moral superiority. In fact both sides appear to happy to be descending to the bottom of the moral dung heap.
Spion
I hear ya
Both do, of course. Whether *you* are capable of distinguishing invader and invaded/occupier and occupied is another matter
Andy the Don
Wise men say only fools..
As I said neither side can claim the moral high ground. You have one side who keeps a population in an open prison opening & turning off the humanitarian tap when they please. And the other side who wishes to visit genocide on its neighbours and educates its children in holocaust denial, religious intolerance and martyrdom. What's not to like about either side..??
Spion
I hear ya
You seem a bit too keen to highlight what *some* Palestinians/Arabs might want to do to Jews rather than the real iniquity of occupation and dispossession that is at the root of the conflict.
Surely the main aim of anyone who wants to see peace there should be to bring about an end to 40 years of occupation and for equality within Israel?
It shouldn't be any surprise that among a people that has been treated horrendously for decades there are some less than temperate voices
tangentlama
Nameless voices crying
I do hope you're not trying to talk about Hamas in this thread about Lebanese Hezbollah, Andy the Don.
Palestinians aren't holocaust deniers - they're well aware what happened in Europe and have a museum dedicated to the European Holocaust in Nazareth. http://alkaritha.org/modules/news/
As i understand it, Palestinians (generally) are unhappy that they should be forcibly displaced and suffer loss of their homes - traditions - livelihoods, as result of Europe's genocidal treatment of its Jewish populace before and during WWII.
Palestinians aren't holocaust deniers - they're well aware what happened in Europe and have a museum dedicated to the European Holocaust in Nazareth. http://alkaritha.org/modules/news/
As i understand it, Palestinians (generally) are unhappy that they should be forcibly displaced and suffer loss of their homes - traditions - livelihoods, as result of Europe's genocidal treatment of its Jewish populace before and during WWII.
Idaho
continuity character
That is total balls. Someone who bludgens a 4 year old girl to death should remain in prison. Hezbollah aren't slaves to Israel and hence aren't 'learning' anything. Your justification of this is frankly baffling.
tangentlama
Nameless voices crying
Let me say this about the prisoner Qantar. He was jailed in 1979, aged 17, for killing a four-year-old Israeli girl and two other people. Aged 16 at the time of the murder(s), he has always denied killing the girl and her father, but never denied killing the other person. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/world/middle_east/7510686.stm
He was in prison for 29 years, and mostly held in an open prison , where he gained a degree from the Jerusalem Open University. He received a pardon from President Peres (but not forgiveness).
At the time of his imprisonment, Lebanon was in civil war, and Israel were constantly invading, on and off.
Murderers are freed in UK every day after serving their sentences, however, this was not a normal murder. Let me place some context to 1979 relations between Israel and Lebanon.
Long before Hezb were formed, in June 1979, UN notes how Israel was not respecting the territorial integrity, unity, sovereignty and political independence of Lebanon within internationally recognised boundaries.
I heard people say that Israel got nothing from handing over the live prisoners. They are of course being naive. Strategically, they get world-wide press and a sympathy now divorced from the terrible events of 1970's.
Israeli raids over Lebanon were sometimes, but not always, in response to PLO operations. At the time, Haim Herzog was worried that the repeated Israeli Air Force raids could drive Lebanese government into providing an air-defence of Lebanese territory, perhaps even relying on Syria for military assistance due to Lebanon's lack of air-defences. On the other hand, the repeated incursions by Palestinian resistance in Lebanon. Mmany Palestinians refugees were pushed here in 48-51, some 30 years earlier from whence some organised a militant response to their disposession (PLO). However, many more were pushed into Lebanon only 12 years earlier after the occupation of East Jerusalem through the absence of the new Israeli-issued permit to reside.
The attacks by militant Palestinians needed a response, but Herzog believed the military response would backfire. Rabin, had also decried military response, favouring political response as the only means to put an end to the terrorism vistited upon the Israeli populace by radicalised militant Palestinian refugees.
At this time - 1979 - military/'civilian' illegal settlements in the Golan were only some 12 years old, and following Israeli incursions against Palestinians in the West Bank/Gaza and Lebanon, these illegal northern settlements were targeted in response. So - a militant Palestinian plants a bomb in Carmel market, in Tel Aviv (April) and it goes off, killing six children of between 6 and 10 years old, bringing the number of Israeli children killed that year to 17. I have no idea how many Palestinian children had been killed by Israel in 1979, because the news never reported Palestinians as human beings back then, let alone count their deaths, but lets say around 4 times that many. Back in 1979, no-one ever talked about why Palestinian militants were fighting Israel. No-one really talked of refugee camps - they talked of camps as though they were military encampments.
I suggest everyone look into the conditions of 1979 and especially those that arose out of 1967 - 12 years prior to 1979.
1967 is when occupation of East Jerusalem/ West Bank began, and these areas were annexed.
1967 Families permanently separated and Palestinians subject to military rule said:
Suggest anyone interested in this conflict and it's resolution in our time goes and reads up on it's history.
In 1967, the first civilian Palestinian response to Israeli annexation of East Jerusalem was not violent. On August 7th 1967, Jerusalem Arabs organised a General Strike to resist Israel by shutting all shops, restaurants and shops. No incidents of violence were reported. I don't know what was happening for those Arabs who were away on business/studying/visting relatives when East Jerusalem was annexed, but they would have lost their residential status/business/ability to rejoin family.
Don't forget to look into the activities of Fatah militants at this time.
Try to take a step back from today's 'religious war' rhetoric, especially in considering that people living in the areas annexed by Israel in 1967 were of mixed religion and ethnicity.
Idaho
continuity character
Ok - well reasoned. This gives room for clemency.
This bit makes no particular difference, in my opinion, to the case. I don't believe you can apply wider geopolitical justifications to bludgening a 4 year old to death. I would accept such justifications to why you went to war. Why you bombed a town, why you assasinated a civil leader, why you car-bombed a checkpoint. But looking a small child in the eye and smashing their skull with a rifle butt?
tangentlama
Nameless voices crying
^^
Spion
I hear ya
People do terrible things when they have had terrible things done to them. Israel has killed thousands upon thousands of Palestinian/Arab children. It started in its formative days by smashing their heads in with sticks during massacres such as Deir Yasin. It not does it now by cluster bomb and tank shell. I'm not justifying anything. You stated that the prisoner release wouldn't play well. I think it does if you consider the wider historical context. When Israel has made its perpetrators of massacres into prime ministers and honours those who took part in them with medal ribbons and the like it shouldn't be surprising that Hizbullah honours its people who do similar.
Yes, it's sad and it's sick, but we really have to understand the root causes of all this to stand any chance of doing anything about it.
tangentlama
Nameless voices crying
Israeli Annexation of 70% of Golan created more than 130,000 refugees, of whom 10% were Circassian (Muslim, Jewish, Christian) who had fled Russia's annexation of their lands in mid-late 19th Century. Today, 350,000 Golani descendents live in Damascus, and also an unknown number (by me) of Circassian Muslim were also taken in as refugees by Turkey. Ethnicities were Druze (6%), Bedouin, plus there is the double-refugee situation of Circassian (10%) plus around 10,000 Palestinian refugees from 1948. Religious composition of peoples annexed were Christian (6%, Orthodox, Maronite, Catholic, Protestant), Muslim (Sunni 85%, Shia), Alawites, Isma'ilis. After annexation, only 3,296 of the original 130,000 remained - primarily Druze with some Christians. Immediately after annexation, IDF destroyed abandoned villages, so there was no hope of return and then permission to settle Golan was given by Israeli government.
In Yom Kippur war 1973, another 510km sq was seized by Israel, containing the economic centre for the Golan - the town Qunaytra.
After the return of some 153 sq km of the Golan to Syria in 1974, and an attempt to rebuild Qunaytra was undertaken, however the majority of the refugee population in Damascus could not afford return, since the destruction of the largely agricultural local economies was too devasting and unstable for the former inhabitants who now held jobs in and around Damascus.
After 1967, and throughout much of the 1970s, Israel continued with deliberate intent to seize more land from the southern Lebanon and the Syrian heights (Golan). This continued alongside and external to the annexation and occupation of West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza in 1967.
In Yom Kippur war 1973, another 510km sq was seized by Israel, containing the economic centre for the Golan - the town Qunaytra.
After the return of some 153 sq km of the Golan to Syria in 1974, and an attempt to rebuild Qunaytra was undertaken, however the majority of the refugee population in Damascus could not afford return, since the destruction of the largely agricultural local economies was too devasting and unstable for the former inhabitants who now held jobs in and around Damascus.
After 1967, and throughout much of the 1970s, Israel continued with deliberate intent to seize more land from the southern Lebanon and the Syrian heights (Golan). This continued alongside and external to the annexation and occupation of West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza in 1967.
tangentlama
Nameless voices crying
More testimonies from post-invasion Golan
Weltweit: "Where was Israel keeping unburied Lebanese dead?": I cannot speak on that. I CAN say that it would bo a contrvention of existing International Law to inter the remains of enemy dead. So, ISrael had no choice but I can also guarantee that such remains have always been treated with dignity which is more than anyone could ever say for Israeli dead.
DISCLOSURE: There have been cases in the past where some elements within our military did treat enemty remains in what I consider a criminal manner. Those who were found guilty were b9oounced and imprisoned for lengthly terms. The vast majority though have always been treated with care.
The humane thing, certainly, is to return the dead to thieer country of origin. This could not be accomplished though, without International mediation since most opposing forces fail to recognise the existence of Israel. In addition, as one now sees, those rmeains , sad to say, serve a pragmatic purpose in obtaining the return of Israeli dead.
As I probably said earlier in this thread, in Israel the return of our military members dead or alive is close to cult like in its importance. I will not go off on a tangent but when I was in Lebanon, I think in 83, there was an op on the coast and in the ensuing firefight the CO evacuated by copter and left 4 men behind. It was getting dark and he felt it better to ensure the safety of the rest of the force. He was immidiately sent back behind enemy lines just ot pick them up, and then as soon as the copter landed he was taken to prison (Military Prison, stripped of all rank, and then bounced). It is VERY serious for us. We have religious Jews who scoop up all spilled blood, that is how serious it gets.
Nino: "Olmert is a dead man walking politically.": Actually you managed to finally make an astute political observation about Israel. Of the 3 men in pwoer at the start of that war (July 12, 2006), only Olmert remains standing. In Israel we forgive financial impropriety quite readily but never forget gaffes of a military nature.
Many , including myself, were angry with the govt. for failing to secure neccessary bugetary allocations for military training. There was a point where we wwere training without live ammo! Then the Reserve DEpots which are scattered all over the country, were in shoddy condition. These are stations were the Reserve Froces pick up weaponry after Call Up and in this case it caused many Reservists, myself included, to get sub par equipment. Then there was the back-up on the border. We had traffic jams of tanks, APCs, and Hummers going back many kilometers.
While the people directly responsible for those things have been made to pay the price, Olmert stood above it and I did not begrudge him since it was my sincere hope that he would promptly continue Sharon's plans for the cedeing of the so called "WB." It was not his fault that it is taking so long but when combined with everything, and now the Exchange.
We already knew they were dead. I cannot speak on certain elements in IDF policy and protocol but let us safely assume that anyone operating near or over the border knows well that should they be taken, they will never see their loved ones again. I cannot get into it more than that but just to say that it is not some kind of shock that they came home dead. What is so frustrating to many is the particular Arab and Druse prisoners. Smashing toddlers skulls in, etc. and then getting a ride to the border. This obviously angers a good many people.
So, it is likely that Olmert will be pushed out sooner rather than later. His likely successor? Hate to say it but Barak probably and that just depresses me. Netanyahu, alittle coc% strong but a better choice is talking about getting into it but it remains to be seen whether or not he can build any momentum.
Barak by the way was also investigated in a criminal complaint for actions while in office so damned if you do, damned if you do not.
DISCLOSURE: There have been cases in the past where some elements within our military did treat enemty remains in what I consider a criminal manner. Those who were found guilty were b9oounced and imprisoned for lengthly terms. The vast majority though have always been treated with care.
The humane thing, certainly, is to return the dead to thieer country of origin. This could not be accomplished though, without International mediation since most opposing forces fail to recognise the existence of Israel. In addition, as one now sees, those rmeains , sad to say, serve a pragmatic purpose in obtaining the return of Israeli dead.
As I probably said earlier in this thread, in Israel the return of our military members dead or alive is close to cult like in its importance. I will not go off on a tangent but when I was in Lebanon, I think in 83, there was an op on the coast and in the ensuing firefight the CO evacuated by copter and left 4 men behind. It was getting dark and he felt it better to ensure the safety of the rest of the force. He was immidiately sent back behind enemy lines just ot pick them up, and then as soon as the copter landed he was taken to prison (Military Prison, stripped of all rank, and then bounced). It is VERY serious for us. We have religious Jews who scoop up all spilled blood, that is how serious it gets.
Nino: "Olmert is a dead man walking politically.": Actually you managed to finally make an astute political observation about Israel. Of the 3 men in pwoer at the start of that war (July 12, 2006), only Olmert remains standing. In Israel we forgive financial impropriety quite readily but never forget gaffes of a military nature.
Many , including myself, were angry with the govt. for failing to secure neccessary bugetary allocations for military training. There was a point where we wwere training without live ammo! Then the Reserve DEpots which are scattered all over the country, were in shoddy condition. These are stations were the Reserve Froces pick up weaponry after Call Up and in this case it caused many Reservists, myself included, to get sub par equipment. Then there was the back-up on the border. We had traffic jams of tanks, APCs, and Hummers going back many kilometers.
While the people directly responsible for those things have been made to pay the price, Olmert stood above it and I did not begrudge him since it was my sincere hope that he would promptly continue Sharon's plans for the cedeing of the so called "WB." It was not his fault that it is taking so long but when combined with everything, and now the Exchange.
We already knew they were dead. I cannot speak on certain elements in IDF policy and protocol but let us safely assume that anyone operating near or over the border knows well that should they be taken, they will never see their loved ones again. I cannot get into it more than that but just to say that it is not some kind of shock that they came home dead. What is so frustrating to many is the particular Arab and Druse prisoners. Smashing toddlers skulls in, etc. and then getting a ride to the border. This obviously angers a good many people.
So, it is likely that Olmert will be pushed out sooner rather than later. His likely successor? Hate to say it but Barak probably and that just depresses me. Netanyahu, alittle coc% strong but a better choice is talking about getting into it but it remains to be seen whether or not he can build any momentum.
Barak by the way was also investigated in a criminal complaint for actions while in office so damned if you do, damned if you do not.
Andy: Koontahr murdered 2 children int hat family, one on the beach and one in the basement, in addition to the 2 year old inadvertantly smothered by the mom. Your report might me transposing ages, etc. In any event, far more important than the age (4 to 7 in my eyes ranks the same horror of course) is the heinous actions.
Koontahr ironically is a Druse. I know Israeli Druse absolutely despise him but I have yet to hear how Jumblatt deals with it. Koontahr belonged to a communist "Palestinian" group, Jumblatt's organisation is left leaning (Socialist actually) but the Druse up there hate "Palestinians" for the most part. I have read the sdossier on him, this and that but alot of things are still a cipher. I can only hope that his own People kill him. If not, I am sure justice will be exacted one way or another.
"Both sides seem happy to descend to the bottom of the dung heap.": To each their own but I fail to see how you could make that statement. He murders members of an innocent Israeli family, including two very young children and does so in a heinous fashion (as if any kind of murder would not be heinous). His actions caused a 2 year old to suffocate to death on top of that. He is then allowed to marry and enjpy conjugal rights, obtain a university degree free of charge from an ISRAELI university, and Israel is at the bottom of a dung heap?
Well, maybe, if you consider their having coddled the bastard as having debased themselves. If that is the logic, I would be the first to agree. We should have exacted justice, true justice. None has been served. Israeli prisons are not hotels but they are alot better than having one's skull bashed in, or having to witness one's baby girl having her head bashed in.
Spion: "They are like slaves who learn bad habits from their masters.": Bravo. Your comment is atrocious on many levels. Ironically the very people you champion would probably spit in your face for that analogy.
I am curious though Spion, how do you imagine a Lebanese Druse is a slave to Israel? I cannot wait for your rationale.
"Israel honours people who particpated in Deir Yassin.": Really? So, by your logic people like Begin should have just been ostracised even decades after having repudiated all forms of terrorism? Please do elbaborate.
"If you are capable of distinguishing invader from the occupied.": As in Arabs coming out of Hejaz and invading Judea, Samaria, Israel, and Gaza? You mean like that? You mean like building mosques atop the holiest site of another religion? Practicing religious and cultural supremacy? Arabs are occupied by Jews? A Jew cannot even step over the Arabian border let alone travel to Mecca and Hejaz so perhaps you might rethink your comment.
No matter how ideologically invested you are, Arabs will never be indigenosu to that land, EVER. They came as invaders. They built their homes atop Jewish homes, sometimes jsut taking Jewish homes as is. They planted trees or took control of trees owned by Jews. They are not of that land.
Some, like Tangent, like to imagine that because most have 150 years there that they now soemhow have a valid claim. They do in so much that Israel has decided to allow it but they have no right, not morally or historically. They posses 25 nations plus Gaza and the so called "WB."
However, do not for a sdecond EVER imagine that this translates into their having been "occupied." They are strangers. They came by force. They live atop land holding the bones of my ancestors. I do not care if a Jew was born and raised in Iowa, they have more historical and moral right to Gaza and the "WB" than any Arab EVER could. Yet politics on the ground are what they are and so they shall have at least their 26th nation. People like you should grovel and thank Israel, not berate it. Israel is giving its own historical heartland (the "WB" is Judea and Samaria. Judea of course being the ancestral homeland of myself and most Jews today)
Arabs occupy land stretching from China to Morrocco andsouth to the Sahel. You ant occupation you have plenty to deal with.
Koontahr ironically is a Druse. I know Israeli Druse absolutely despise him but I have yet to hear how Jumblatt deals with it. Koontahr belonged to a communist "Palestinian" group, Jumblatt's organisation is left leaning (Socialist actually) but the Druse up there hate "Palestinians" for the most part. I have read the sdossier on him, this and that but alot of things are still a cipher. I can only hope that his own People kill him. If not, I am sure justice will be exacted one way or another.
"Both sides seem happy to descend to the bottom of the dung heap.": To each their own but I fail to see how you could make that statement. He murders members of an innocent Israeli family, including two very young children and does so in a heinous fashion (as if any kind of murder would not be heinous). His actions caused a 2 year old to suffocate to death on top of that. He is then allowed to marry and enjpy conjugal rights, obtain a university degree free of charge from an ISRAELI university, and Israel is at the bottom of a dung heap?
Well, maybe, if you consider their having coddled the bastard as having debased themselves. If that is the logic, I would be the first to agree. We should have exacted justice, true justice. None has been served. Israeli prisons are not hotels but they are alot better than having one's skull bashed in, or having to witness one's baby girl having her head bashed in.
Spion: "They are like slaves who learn bad habits from their masters.": Bravo. Your comment is atrocious on many levels. Ironically the very people you champion would probably spit in your face for that analogy.
I am curious though Spion, how do you imagine a Lebanese Druse is a slave to Israel? I cannot wait for your rationale.
"Israel honours people who particpated in Deir Yassin.": Really? So, by your logic people like Begin should have just been ostracised even decades after having repudiated all forms of terrorism? Please do elbaborate.
"If you are capable of distinguishing invader from the occupied.": As in Arabs coming out of Hejaz and invading Judea, Samaria, Israel, and Gaza? You mean like that? You mean like building mosques atop the holiest site of another religion? Practicing religious and cultural supremacy? Arabs are occupied by Jews? A Jew cannot even step over the Arabian border let alone travel to Mecca and Hejaz so perhaps you might rethink your comment.
No matter how ideologically invested you are, Arabs will never be indigenosu to that land, EVER. They came as invaders. They built their homes atop Jewish homes, sometimes jsut taking Jewish homes as is. They planted trees or took control of trees owned by Jews. They are not of that land.
Some, like Tangent, like to imagine that because most have 150 years there that they now soemhow have a valid claim. They do in so much that Israel has decided to allow it but they have no right, not morally or historically. They posses 25 nations plus Gaza and the so called "WB."
However, do not for a sdecond EVER imagine that this translates into their having been "occupied." They are strangers. They came by force. They live atop land holding the bones of my ancestors. I do not care if a Jew was born and raised in Iowa, they have more historical and moral right to Gaza and the "WB" than any Arab EVER could. Yet politics on the ground are what they are and so they shall have at least their 26th nation. People like you should grovel and thank Israel, not berate it. Israel is giving its own historical heartland (the "WB" is Judea and Samaria. Judea of course being the ancestral homeland of myself and most Jews today)
Arabs occupy land stretching from China to Morrocco andsouth to the Sahel. You ant occupation you have plenty to deal with.
Similar threads
- Poll
