Agreed. Iran wouldn't give up it's nuke program for anything. And I don't think they care much about a Palestinian state or Israel. It's in their interest to have the I/P conflict continue so they can rant against Israel & appear to be "good" Muslims.
Israel and the US: Heading for a clash?
- Thread starter frogwoman
- Start date
Nope. I think they are a complete pain in the ass to the US. US support for Israel causes a huge amount of anger at the US in the oil rich Arab countries. If Israel wasn't there, or if it would allow a Palestinian state, the US ability to exploit the resources of the region would be greatly enhanced.
I've heard the theory for years that Israel is America's hired gun in the ME, but I've never believed it. They provide some intelligence & ani-insurgency training but I can't see they do much else for the US. In the 2 wars with Iraq, what role did Israel play? I'd say virtually none. US long range bombers flew all the way from Diego Garcia, not Israel.
I think this is an illusion created by a naive understanding of US interests. If you read Walt and Meersheimer on the Israel lobby, you see that their argument is based on the following logic:
Does American foreign policy follow American interests or Israel's interests? It seems to follow the latter more than the former. Therefore the Israel lobby is effecting policy.
The problem is that they believe American foreign interests are:
1) The spreading of democracy.
2) Fighting terrorism.
That is, it is an argument by jaw-dropping naivity.
Isn't this evidence that the Israel lobby have little influence, though? The fact that Israel was sidelined by the US during the war in Iraq shows how little influence the Israel lobby really has.
Israel pisses off pro-American arab states. But not enough for them to drop their pro-Americanism. Egypt in particular is aiding the policing of Gaza. Pan-arab nationalism has failed. Pan-Islamicism is a non-starter.
tangentlama
Nameless voices crying
They are closely aligned to the policies of the Likud party.
No, I don't see it that way.
Sadaam tried to provoke Israel into the 1st Iraq war by hitting it with his scuds. But the US rushed to Israel's aid & provided Patriot missile batteries (even though they didn't work).
In the 2nd Iraq war I don't think Israel had any desire to get involved. They were content to kick back & let the US remove Saddam.
In '73 Arabs held an oil boycott of the US & countries that aided Israel in the Yom Kippur war. This had a devistating impact on the US economy.
What I see is favors & sarcifices made by the US for Israel......because of the Israel lobby.
The policy of invasion and occupation with respect to Iraq is something of an anomoly and it required the firm backing of Saudi Arabia and Egypt so that the US could launch its invasion. This is why Israel has been sidelined in recent years. But the US continues to aid Israel. I can't believe that American leaders are being duped by the Israel lobby. I think the truth is that in dealing with Iran and perhaps in the future with Syria it is likely that Israel will be doing the US's dirty work for it. Good cop - bad cop routine.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Yep, especially the Republican Party; there is a reciprocity between the two.
Wolveryeti
Detty Pig
Israel's PR machine manipulates US feelings about terrorism very adeptly, perpetuating this bogus notion of two allies united against a Muslim force that wants to 'destroy the West'. Conveniently however, it sidesteps the fact that if the US had minded its own business and kept out of the Middle East there probably would never have been a 9/11.
In the sense that the US has for some time been a kleptocracy of monied interests using US politics to enrich their own companies, however - the two states have had overlapping interests. They just haven't served the majority of the US (and arguably the Israeli) population.
In the sense that the US has for some time been a kleptocracy of monied interests using US politics to enrich their own companies, however - the two states have had overlapping interests. They just haven't served the majority of the US (and arguably the Israeli) population.
Combustible
Well-Known Member
Well these Arab regimes wouldn't necessarily have been pro-American if Israel hadn't played it's role in suppressing Arab nationalism. As Chomsky also points out tensions between Israel and Arab states allows arms companies to make a lot of money by selling them dated military equipment.
The idea of Israel manipulating US foreign policy against US interests doesn't make much sense although it is a convenient line for liberal America. Energy and arms companies have much more money and lobbying power than AIPAC.
And so far expressions of anger against the US because of it's pro-Israeli stance and others have in fact helped not damaged these sectors. 9/11 certainly didn't really damage US corporate interests.
thats the understatement of the year
American leaders aren't being duped at all. They know exactly what's going on. And what they know is that if they don't go along with the Israel lobby, they stand little chance of being elected.
I doubt that the US gov would have much of a problem with Syria if it weren't Israel's enemy. Even in the case of Iran, I don't think the US would be nearly as concerned about it if it wasn't an enemy of Israel.
Iran is much more powerful as a result of the Iraq war. It is becoming a regional superpower. It may develop nuclear weapons but even if it doesn't it has real economic and military clout. What happens in Iraq when the Americans withdraw? There are all sorts of contingencies there that Iran can take advantage of - it has the military power and political influence to do so. Hezbollah doesn't need Iran to deal with Israel. There is no great reason for hostility between Iran and Israel except the latter's alliance with America.
Yes, the US invasions of Afghan & especially Iraq have allowed Iran to become a regional superpower. And of course when the US gets out of Iraq, Iran will have a large amount of influence there. So this just means that the neo-cons created a more powerful enemy for Israel with their Iraq invasion. They assumed they'd easily knock off Iraq & then march on to Iran. Things just didn't work out for them, poor guys.
I've never quite seen why Iran is so anti-Israel. When I visited Iran in '98 the English version of the Tehran times had an article saying that it had become an accepted fact that the holocaust was greatly exaggerated. But I don't think it has much to do with US being Israel's ally. They see Israel as a western infidel in the Muslim world I guess but I think they bash Israel mainly to ingratiate themselves with the Arab/Muslim world because the Sunnis fear them & the Shia have always had an inferiority complex among Muslims.
Concerning Hez, they need Iran very much. That's who supplies their weapons.
I don't know whether the neo-cons had quite that much hubris. Quite possible though! But I'm really not convinced there is much to Iran-Israel antagonism other than a reflection of Iran-US antagonism - excepting Iranian influence in Lebanon (you are of course right about Iran supplying Hezbollah with weapons).
Does Iran really see Israel as infidels in the Muslim world? I strongly suspect that's just their retoric. Apart from anything Israel has been more trouble for Iran's regional Sunni rivals than it has for Iran.
That would be quite something. Hope it happens. The US right will scream anti-semitsm, but let them. Only a small % of the US pop pays much attention to them any more.
tangentlama
Nameless voices crying
Palestinian Arabs are also semitic-speaking people.
Streathamite
ideological dogmatist
Nope. we have an area with (very) limited autonomy - and both sides know it.
I absotely agree with you there. Israel has it's own agenda that it is not easily diverted from. It's foreign policy is hardly a puppet for US foreign policy to pull the strings.
Even when US and Israeli interests are aligned and Israel is capable of providing what would be invaluable help which it would happily provide, more often than not the US cannot use that help for political reasons.
Just take a look at all the wars that the US has participated in in the Middle East in the last couple of decades. In all those instances the US could only accept minimal assistance from Israel in order not to anger other states aligned with the US in the region.
The Islamic Republic has always been allied with the Palestinian cause and therefore antagonistic to Israel. The problem for Israel is that if any other country becomes a nuclear power in the region it could create a regional MAD (mutually assured destruction) situation rendering Israel's nuclear arsenal far less of a deterrent against conventional warfare.
I don't think that's true though. Israel and Iran were allies prior to 1979, I don't think there is any history of Iran supporting Palestine. Iran, like Ba'athist Iraq and Nasser's Egypt posture on the Palestinian cause to influence the Arab world, they don't actually do anything for the Palestinians.
Edit: I should add that Israel was supplying Iran with arms in the Iran-Iraq war.
tangentlama
Nameless voices crying
Iran's 'beef' is with Zionism and Zionism's religious ethnonationalist exclusivity and settler-colonial-expansion mentality & activity and not with Israel's existence as national and religious 'home' of Jews and non-Jews per se.
On a religious level, Iran accepts Israel and Judaism and Jews in Israel-Palestine and always has.
On an political level, Iran does not accept Zionism and Zionist dispossession of people from their land, be they Arab-Muslim/Christian or Jew, and never will.
There are nearly three thousand years of historical support between 'Iran' (Persia) and 'Israel-Palestine' (K'nan/Canaan/'Gaza' etc), but there is no support and there won't ever be any support for Zionism.
During 50s, Moshe Dayan destroyed an important Shia mosque and shrine - that of Imam Ali - the Mosque of the Prophet Hussein (Maqam al Nabi Hussein) in Madjal (now called Ashkelon). It was over 1,000 years old and both Sunni and Shia went there on pilgramage. Dayan destroyed this and over one hundred other Muslim shrines and mosques, as well as hundreds of Arab villages. This was comparable to destroying Bamayan statues by Taliban and an act of extreme religous intolerance. Many Israeli Jews spoke out against the destruction of the 50s including the Israeli Antiquities Department. It is regretted by many academics and professional archaeologists that such dreadful acts occurred. Destruction of religious sites is not the worst of it - lives have been destroyed and the nature/face of Israel changed forever. These acts were made in the name of Zionism and not in the name of Judaism. If amends are to be made, the rebuilding of the Maqam al Nabi Hussein in its original style would be one place to start.
Already Iran trades with Israel in some things - oil and pistachio to name two. Relationship between Iran and Israel could easier be normalised however there is an NGO element within US/Israel/Russia that supports antagonistic anti-Muslim literature and promoes Israel/Jerusalem for Christian/Jew only and these are very active and have fingers in many pies and work hard at remaining antagonistic and which some high-level lords in britain support - eg. Barnoess Cox, whom i dislike intensely as her 'good intentions' pave the way to hell for us all.
The Islamic Republic didn't exist until the Islamic revolution of 1979. Since then it has been one of the most vocal and ardent supporters of the Palestinian cause.
Obvioulsy the Iran-Contra affair is obviously pretty complicated. The arms weren't provided directly to the Islamic Republic and Israel was acting solely as a means for the USA to transfer arms.
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