Let me explain this carefully. The opposition got 53% of the already rigged vote. Zanu-PF is so unpopular they managed to lose a rigged election.
Isn't Mugabe the classic strong man that is needed? We wanted Saddam gone once.
- Thread starter Greebozz
- Start date
Let me explain this carefully. The opposition got 53% of the already rigged vote. Zanu-PF is so unpopular they managed to lose a rigged election.
Yes. He is one sick, twisted c@nt.
White farmers do not and did not rule the country. They were the most productive sectors of the economy. I don't think anyone sensible would disagree that the land distribution demographics did not need some redress, and to the extent that the farmers did not do something before all this chaos ensued they are culpable, but they have never ruled the country.
Part of Africa's problem is the so called Imperial sour grapes - they just don't take any responsibility for their own future and keep blaming the colonial masters for all their ills. Surely 30 years after independence a country should be responsible for its own state of affairs.
The UK, France, Holland etc might have treated the continent disgracefully but its no patch on how its own leaders treat it. They are much harder on the continent than the colonial masters were and I think the recent summit goes to prove this. It is now apparent that all the SADC leaders want to keep ZANU-PF in power (but replace Mugabe with Makoni), despite the will of the people which is crystal clear from the elections. They, led by that scoundrel Mbeki are clubbing together to subvert democracy. It is disgraceful.
Edit: For the record the oposition is claiming 50.3% not 53%.
likesfish
You can't park here sir
thats true as far as it goes
but the US and USSR took over when the Europeans bogged off except France never really left maybe that's why its colonies are in less of a shit state
everybody gave dodgy loans for stuff nobody needed to greedy and corrupt leaders. Who although shits to a man could claim they were only following what whitey did.
but the US and USSR took over when the Europeans bogged off except France never really left maybe that's why its colonies are in less of a shit state
everybody gave dodgy loans for stuff nobody needed to greedy and corrupt leaders. Who although shits to a man could claim they were only following what whitey did.
Gmart
Well-Known Member
Even if Mugabe DOES get away with it, or is replaced by someone who will continue his work, eventually it will have to be the Zimbabweans who ensure that the elections get better, and to be fair they have done so this time.
This is the first time Mugabe has failed to adequately buy/rig the election, which is a step in the right direction.
This is the first time Mugabe has failed to adequately buy/rig the election, which is a step in the right direction.
Bollocks. What do you think they've been doing in the last 2 weeks???
Gmart
Well-Known Member
As opposed to previously, when he simply got away with it...
Don't know what country you're from pal but rigging is rigging pal. Doesn't matter if its done two weeks after the election or in the hours between actual voting & releasing results!
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
I suspect you'll have a long wait for an answer, and if you do get one, it'll be about having read a Wilbur Smith novel many many years ago.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
IIRC, at the last election the result was ignored, and part of the reason Mugabe "got away with it" (hardly simply) was because the MDC fought shy of calling Mugabe's regime because they didn't want to trigger a civil war.
More than half a decade and thousands of deaths later, I suspect the MDC and their supporters may have less patience, especially with the example of Kenya, and Kibaki's concessions, fresh in their minds.
You call me a sick and twisted cunt, but what you think you come across as, with your above comment. That could be really offensive to someone from Zimbabwe.
And just for the record a spokesman for the opposition was being interviewed on radio 4 and that figure, (thanks for the correction) was 50.3%, taken from all the posted figures from the polling stations. There is and was no suggestion by the opposition that these figures had been manipulated by Mugabe. The interviewer pressed the spokesman particularly about this point.
And as a final point
I am a little tired of Britain's hypocrisy. Throughout the British Empire, we stole other countries resources, oppressed and mass murdered. It was only after we have been thrown out on our ear of these countries, and are powerless. How we now discovered wonderfully refined morals and do goodery.
Strange - the country wasn't a shithole under Ian Smith?
Bring back them days, 99.9999999% of the population would say.
frogwoman
Let them eat newts
So Ian Smith's regime was "better" than Mugabe's? That's like arguing that shit is better than vomit tbh. They were both bad but in different ways. Smith never stayed in power long enough to truly fuck up the place and what he did fuck up he did pretty "well". Without Smith and his tactics of repression Mugabe would never be in power.
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
Yes it was, and no they wouldn't.
Bang to Rights
Well-Known Member
I lived in Rhodesia towards the end of the Ian Smith government. The writing was on the wall though I was strongly critized (and ostrisize) by the Whites for saying it openly.
Anyway, Smith started negociating with Black leaders “just in case” – mostly with Nkomo and Mugabe. There was never any question that White Rhodesians considered Mugabe “their man” if a colour change in government ever were to take place. Think of it! Mugabe was the White man’s choice!
Anyway, Smith started negociating with Black leaders “just in case” – mostly with Nkomo and Mugabe. There was never any question that White Rhodesians considered Mugabe “their man” if a colour change in government ever were to take place. Think of it! Mugabe was the White man’s choice!
I am actually from Zimbabwe. And you can take that as you wish, the fact remains that what I said is correct.
And yes you are a sick and twisted cunt.
On the subject of comparisons between Mugabe & Smith, one of Smith's famous ones was something to the effect of their never being "black rule in a thousand years." Mugabe recently said the MDC would "never rule in a thousand years."
Bang to Rights
Well-Known Member
Yes, I remember "The honourabe, Mr. Ian Douglas Smith" on the tube in 1978 saying "...over my dead body!"
Up until last year he certainly managed an impressive twitch for a dead man!
Which Africa? Who "they"? Big bloody place with all sorts of different people and histories.
I suspect that if you really grasped the nature of the theft, oppression, murder and destruction of culture that occurred in much Africa, then you would figure it takes more than 30 years to improve...Jesus, old Etonians and their sponsors still think they can fuck with the place.
"
Bang to Rights
Well-Known Member
Take your pick, bird brain. Other than Ethiopia I don't think you'll find a country on the continent that doesn't fit "Fire's" description. Fire is African, you know. But I suppose you think you know more about Africa than the Africans, right?
Yeah, and so is my girlfriend and mates of mine, but that doesn't mean shit, you twat. Take any country dominated by foreigners, exploited, abused and then told to get on with it. You'll find far more failures than successes. Simply saying, "Gosh, chaps, get on with it, would you, been 30 years now" is intellectual laziness.
Your ignorance is breathtaking.
How long do you let someone moan and complain and gripe and bitch about wrongs that happened over 30 years ago? At what point to people (and governments) become responsible for their own destiny?
Look at Botswana - its a classic case of a well run country - HUGE problems (30% HIV incidence) and aside of diamonds, not a great deal of natural resources. It has been incredibly well managed and grown at over 9% PA since 1966! This just proves that it is possible. The reason for Africa's failure is bad governance more than anything else.
Zimbabwe (and indeed most other African countries) are better naturally endowed than Botswana yet you seem to think that their colonisation is a just excuse for the sorry state most of them are in today. I'm glad you aren't PM here! Look at Germany, even the UK after WW2 - how did they recover? Much better than Southern Africa!
You might not like "the west" you might not like "capitalism" you might not like "free market economics" however, this is the way of the world and unless you play you're likely to be in serious trouble (see Zimbabwe) but hey thats ok as Poi E thinks you have a good excuse!
Simple man...where do we start. I have never said that no responsibility lies with African leaders. However, the very fact that you point out 1 moderate success really does point to the dramatic failures of many other sub-saharan African states.
And what do they have in common? Colonialism. Rapacious exploitation, encouraging divisions between ethnic groups by installing proxies, and the expectation that the wholesale importing of democratic procedures would result in a truly institutional democracy. Or did the colonial masters really think that? Or want it? Perhaps the Belgians were the most honest in their subterfuge.
I agree with you that Africa's problem is bad governance. Going right back to the first colonialists. If you take a look at a lot of the statute books in former British colonies, you will find a large amount of repressive laws that were inherited by the new rulers. And surprise, surprise, they used them, as they had been used against those new rules by the former masters.
The Zimbabwean people I spoke to in SA were vastly of the opinion that Bob was bad news. But many were also aware of the disparity in the distribution of land and the need for a solution to that. That was, and is, an issue of colonialism. But I guess they should just shut up, face market forces and carry on selling those beads by the side of the road, eh captain?
frogwoman
Let them eat newts
well said.
And
Somewhat contradictory eh? First you say that African leaders are responsible, then you give them excuses for failing. Can you make up your mind please?
What is your beef with Etonians FFS? Have you had anything to say about China? They will be even harsher on Africa than the old colonial masters ever were. The British at least had some foggy, faint notion of human rights, even in the colonies however the Chinese are ONLY concerned with money and have no qualms at all backing the most despotic regimes. Yet you only seem to have a beef with the Etonians. How mature and reasoned.
Moderate? Its actually a crowning achievement. Nothing moderate about it at all!
Agreed, however, the African leaders who have taken over have by and large been much much harder on the country than the colonists were.
To some extent the land distribution is colonial however a significant proportion of formerly white owned land was actually aquired after independence. Most people who bought land after independence received certificates of non interest from the government, only to have land grabbed a few years later! If you've actually read my previous posts you'll see that I've said that the farmers should done something to make matters more equitable.
Bob_the_lost
Elsewhere
Are you sure about this? I mean it sounds exactly what we did for the vast majority of the duration of the Empire.
I'm not sure quite how you draw that conclusion from what I have posted. African leaders are responsible, as is the nature of leadership, but their actions occur against a historical backdrop, as all actions do. And this is one hell of a bloody backdrop. Hundreds of years. And you really think that a few decades and castigation of their leaders for poor performance will change this? You sound like a World Bank structural adjustment guru with his graphs.
Did I say I had no beef with the Chinese government (note, not the Chinese...)? And you actually managed to take from my post that I am concerned only with old Etonians?
Certainly an achievement. Why are their so few?
Noted.
It should, but many are not. You inexcusably downplay the tremendous weight of the historical backdrop by this statement.
Bollocks. That is a cop out for responsibility. Stop whinging and get off your arse and sort your mess out! Thats the sort of attitude Southern Africa needs.
You tell 'em, baas.
Similar threads
- Poll
