islamophobia .. what does it mean? is it wrong? etc

[Fedayn]

The Guy from MPAC an Asian obviously, has just been on Sky he is arguing no more Mosques should be built untill there are numerous programmes put in place to teach civic duty, a respect for the host country, to immans, elders, the youth,

watch the liberals/far left squirm....

Why would anyone squirm? Are you too thjick to see the difference between bigots calling for an end to mosque building and those Muslims who want to maintain soime kind of cohesion doing it? Or is that as little difficult for you? And anyway, why are you here? You're always fucking moaning about people wasting time with this and not getting involved in welfare issues.....

 

[likesfish]

islam can be a quite a good thing.
but if its being funded by the saudis or mixed up with the cultural bagage of hill village of fuckknowswherestan its not.
to be fair there are quite a few muslims running around knowning a lot less about islam than they should and being very fanatical with ranther less knowledge than they should. Got told this by an iman I brielfy worked with trying to work with a very mentaly ill iranian muslim.

 

[mrfusion]

anxiety, aversion, avoidance, awe, detestation, disgust, dislike, distaste, dread, fear, hang-up, hatred, horror, irrationality, loathing, neurosis, obsession, repulsion, resentment, revulsion, terror, thing about, thing

Thesaurus entries for phobia. You can pretend it means what you like, 'Durutti' (disgusted calling you by that name, btw) but when someone calls you islamophobic they mean you hate muslims. pure and simple.

 

[Spion]

Islamophobia is to muslims as anti-semitism is to jews.

 

[Spion]

anxiety, aversion, avoidance, awe, detestation, disgust, dislike, distaste, dread, fear, hang-up, hatred, horror, irrationality, loathing, neurosis, obsession, repulsion, resentment, revulsion, terror, thing about,

Ah, you've met treelover then?

 

[In Bloom]

The Guy from MPAC an Asian obviously, has just been on Sky he is arguing no more Mosques should be built untill there are numerous programmes put in place to teach civic duty, a respect for the host country, to immans, elders, the youth,

watch the liberals/far left squirm....

Teching loyalty to Queen and country, there's a way to fix all of societies problems

 

[durruti02]

anxiety, aversion, avoidance, awe, detestation, disgust, dislike, distaste, dread, fear, hang-up, hatred, horror, irrationality, loathing, neurosis, obsession, repulsion, resentment, revulsion, terror, thing about, thing

Thesaurus entries for phobia. You can pretend it means what you like, 'Durutti' (disgusted calling you by that name, btw) but when someone calls you islamophobic they mean you hate muslims. pure and simple.

therasarus is not definition ffs lol

"The term is formed of Islam, the post-classical Latin -o- connecting vowel, and the post-classical Latin combining form -phobia which is used to form nouns with the sense 'irrational fear of' or 'aversion to.'[10] ... As opposed to being a psychological or individualistic phobia, according to associate professor of religion Peter Gottschalk, Islamophobia connotes a social anxiety about Islam and Muslims."


and the point of the OP is partially how ordianary ( but still irrational ) fears are changed for poiltical opportunism in this case by the multicultural neo-liberal state and the opportunist left looking for a audiance

.. so if you look at the Runnymeade Trust research also at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamophobia

"The Runnymede report identified eight perceptions related to Islamophobia:

1. Islam is seen as a monolithic bloc, static and unresponsive to change.
2. It is seen as separate and "other." It does not have values in common with other cultures, is not affected by them and does not influence them.
3. It is seen as inferior to the West. It is seen as barbaric, irrational, primitive, and sexist.
4. It is seen as violent, aggressive, threatening, supportive of terrorism, and engaged in a clash of civilizations.
5. It is seen as a political ideology, used for political or military advantage.
6. Criticisms made of "the West" by Muslims are rejected out of hand.
7. Hostility towards Islam is used to justify discriminatory practices towards Muslims and exclusion of Muslims from mainstream society.
8. Anti-Muslim hostility is seen as natural and normal."

... it is clear 'islamophobia' is NOT simply hatred but a rage of perceptions some progressive, from people who do not understand why we are seeing religious conservatism that was wiped out centruries ago here, to reactionary prejudice based on lies and myths ..

the BASIS of the OP is that to change peoples minds we must first understand wheer they are coming from .. labelling islamophobia as nothing but hatred of muslims is neither true nor does it help

 

[Blagsta]

How do you juggle this with the view generally purveyed by Mulims that they are part of 'one' 'Ummah', and that any deviation from that is probably a blasphemer/zionist plant/agent of the west etc...

The Muslims I know don't "purvey" that view.

 

[Silver_Fox]

Islamophobia is to muslims as anti-semitism is to jews.

This is exactly the point. Judaism is a religion, yet everyone know anti-semitism is a type of racism. The same with Islmophobia.

Durutti you can make up any definition you like but to most people Islamophobia will equate to racism.

Now you would say that it's understandable to be anti-semitic, at least I hope you wouldn't You might look at the reasons for it and try and change that but that's different.

 

[Prince Rhyus]

islam can be a quite a good thing.
but if its being funded by the saudis or mixed up with the cultural bagage of hill village of fuckknowswherestan its not.
to be fair there are quite a few muslims running around knowning a lot less about islam than they should and being very fanatical with ranther less knowledge than they should. Got told this by an iman I brielfy worked with trying to work with a very mentaly ill iranian muslim.

I found the same thing when I stumbled into an open day being held at a local mosque round my way. One of the people who helps run it is a consultant physician and told how some of those "at risk" of heading down the extremist route had other issues that needed dealing with - for example through counselling (which he provided).

 

[Prince Rhyus]

How do you juggle this with the view generally purveyed by Muslims that they are part of 'one' 'Ummah', and that any deviation from that is probably a blasphemer/zionist plant/agent of the west etc...

What about the continued conflict between Sunni and Shia Muslims?

The idea of one "Ummah" is similar to that of Christian Ecumenism - the idea of one "Church"

I can't see the Orthodox, Protestant and Catholic churches getting back together for at least another millennium.

 

[derf]

did you read the op .. say what is wrong on it if you have a rational opinion

and there is a very real material basis for islamophobia .. 10 years of war in msulim countries with hundreds british soldiers killed .. 200 british dead in 9/11 .. 50 dead in 7/7 .. and a saudi funded significant increase in islamist presence over the last few years co-inciding with a period of massive insecurity for the majority of people as neo liberalism goes into crisis

There is no basis for it.
!0 years of war in Muslim countries. Hang on..... Muslim countries. That's not Muslims attacking the UK but the UK and others attacking Muslims.

It's true a lot of servicemen have been killed but fighting a war trying to impose western values on people that often don't want it.
I'm bloody sure the civilians who have been killed by the thousand didn't want it.
It is true that the taleban are way OTT but does that excuse the mass deaths caused by the invasion. The next Muslim country invaded, Iraq, is generally seen as a major mistake. True sadam is better dead but how about the masses of innocent dead there caused directly by the invasion?
Perhaps more Muslims have more to fear from the west than the west does of them.
You mention Saudi funded. I understand this is true but, last I looked, there was no US invasion over there. Of course my internet connection is quite slow and I may have missed it.

On to the next. There were a couple of bombings in Jakarta a few weeks ago. That killed western businessmen but I have yet to see the Enterprise off the Indonesian coast with it's battle group poised for an attack.
I suspect it's because only a few Muslims here are guilty of that crime, not all. Saudi funding has been found for that one as well. Perhaps a battle group should head over there smartish and kill as many rag reads as they can find - just in case they are terrorists.

I repeat - there is no basis for hating all of any group for the actions of a small minority of it.

That is gross stupidity. Any other questions?

 

[Red Cat]

Durutti's obsession with the left strikes me as being akin to the islamophobia he describes. If we look at the first point in the Runneymede report he quotes and replace it with The Left...

1. Islam is seen as a monolithic bloc, static and unresponsive to change.

etc.

 

[invisibleplanet]

Durutti's obsession with the left strikes me as being akin to the islamophobia he describes. If we look at the first point in the Runneymede report he quotes and replace it with The Left...

1. Islam is seen as a monolithic bloc, static and unresponsive to change.

etc.

My goodness, so it does, Red Cat!

 

[Red Cat]

On a more serious note I don't think that Durutti is suggesting that Islamophobia is justified. I think he's saying that the demonisation of Muslims by the media and politicians is assisted by certain events. Surely its useful to look at how racism is created rather than simply condemning from a moral viewpoint.

He expresses himself terribly though and should take note.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

On a more serious note I don't think that Durutti is suggesting that Islamophobia is justified.

"there is a very real material basis for islamophobia"? Post #1.

 

[Red Cat]

"there is a very real material basis for islamophobia"? Post #1.

Is saying that something has some basis the same as saying its justified?

I shouldn't have bothered trying to defend him as his posts are confusing and confused, I'm not sure of what he's saying exactly. And I don't care that much.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Is saying that something has some basis the same as saying its justified?

Well, yeah; if you say there's a real material basis for something I think the implication is that it's justified.

 

[Red Cat]

Well, yeah; if you say there's a real material basis for something I think the implication is that it's justified.

I think some Marxists have argued that historically there was a material basis to antisemitism. That unless you understood it in its economic and historical i.e. material context, then you held the position that antisemitism is ahistorical and inevitable. I don't think they were arguing that it was justified though.

 

[invisibleplanet]

"It is, and always has been the policy of the ruling classes to attribute the sufferings and miseries of the masses (which are natural consequences of class rule and class exploitation) to all sorts of causes except the real ones."
http://www.noii.org.uk/files/A_Voice_From_The_Aliens_(reprint_of_1895_pamphlet).pdf

 

[Red Cat]

"It is, and always has been the policy of the ruling classes to attribute the sufferings and miseries of the masses (which are natural consequences of class rule and class exploitation) to all sorts of causes except the real ones."
http://www.noii.org.uk/files/A_Voice_From_The_Aliens_(reprint_of_1895_pamphlet).pdf

Sorry, I haven't the time to read that. But yes, racism in the form in which we're talking about it, is a creation of a capitalist ruling class. Which I'm sure Durutti is aware of. Which is why its confusing that he expresses himself in a way that makes him sound like a bigot. I know he had a very long thread about immigration that seemed to be top of the threads for months. I never read it, so those who did are more aware of where he's coming from than I am.

 

[butchersapron]

That pamphlet is an attack on an anti-immigration resolution passed at the cardiff TUC in 1895. I'm not sure what it's supposed to show - that the TUC are the ruling class? That the working class in unions uncritically follow ruling class idea?

 

[trevhagl]

Nope you serious prick.
A few Muslims did that silly trick not all of us.
Most Muslims don't support violence and murder.

Islamaphobia is like all hatreds. It depends on all in any group being the same and no group ever is.

It's just as wrong as hating all of any group because of the actions of a few or because you just don't happen to like them for your own silly reasons.

A Tory preaching understanding!!!??????????????????????????