Islamophobes 'r' us

[llantwit]

Are you saying that an open discussion on how Derogatory Class and Race Rhetoric feeds the class-war is not relevant to Class War ?

No, I'm not.
I'm saying that you shouldn't expect 'inteligent critique', and 'sophisticated argument' from the group who's response to Diana's death was:
'Diana Dead: Two more Dead Parasites' D )
Which, IMO, is fine.
As far as the critique of religion is concerned - I made my points at the start of the thread.

 

[smokedout]

Class War ... Racist and Proud

We don't like to wash our dirty linen in public here at the void. We avoid controversy, shun scandal and spurn speculation in the name of avoiding confrontation and making the world a happier place all round ...

.. but we can't let this one go unmentioned. Long running anarchist group London Class War seem to have caught Barking and Dagenham-itus and launched a diatribe on Islam titled Islamophobes R us.

Class War are not reknown for reasoned criticism, no Chomky's to be found here, and that is to be welcomed. Ideally it should be a humourous and refreshing antidote to the likes of the Scum and the other tabloids it was largely established to parody. It seems recently however that Class War aims to go one better than the Scum having written to the website http://www.islamophobia-watch.com claiming "we are proud to be Islamophobic" before adding just as we are proud to be ‘Christianophic’, ‘Judeophobic’, ‘Hindoophobic’, ‘Buddhaphobic’, and whatever other mumbo- jumbo bullshit that the black crows of the Priestocracy try to foist upon us.'

This diatribe ends

"As proof of our suitability for inclusion on your hitlist/blacklist may I draw your attention to our latest issue and the article on Islam (just so you won’t think that we may have put that article in just for the glory of being on your hate list, check any other issue of Class War, or our website and you’ll find numerous insults to both mohammed (piss on him) and his modern day would be Torquemadas)."

Class War have featured three pieces on their newswire laying into Islam in the last two months, claiming as they do their anti-religious agenda. It seems strange then that in a Christian country Class War should choose to focus on Islam rather than the religion of the society we live in. Class War only features one anti-Christian story in the same period, laying into Christians for exercising their right to protest outside Jerry Springer the Opera.

We could not find any ‘Judeophobic’ (isn't there another word for that?), ‘Hindoophobic’ or ‘Buddhaphobic’ on their newsire, we did find a piece advertising a reggae dance raising money for Jah Spirit, a Hackney based Rastafarian fighting to keep his business on Broadway Market so presumably Class War are not rastaphobic, nor do they seem to be mumbo-jumbo pseudo-pagan-phobic after wishing stone age visitors a happy solstice recently.

So what's behind Class War's attack on Islam? Well the motivation seems to be islamophobia.com's list of islamophobes which includes the National Secular Society and Peter Tatchell. Now the void agrees that this may be slightly unfair and somewhat without foundation, it seems to be down to their participation in the recent and much villified failure the march for free expression.

This event, which only attracted slightly over 100 people was organised by posh fash' The Freedom Association in co-operation with various groups from the left and right including the National Secular Society and UKIP.

In reality the event was an excuse for Islam-bashing, the day also attracted criticism due to the focus on the Danish cartoons depicting Mohammed as well as the attendance and support of the BNP and their bastard child Civil Liberties.

We were in touch with Peter Tatchell at the time, the full story can be found here. Whilst we still believe his attendance was slightly naive we could find no fault in what Tatchell said and his reasons for being there, however there was some controversy over what he did actually say on the day (in the comments here).

Desperate to court controversy it seems that Class War has jumped on the back of this unholy alliance of the left and right and come down firmly on the right side of the fence.

Presumably they would defend their actions by claiming that they are not attacking Muslims but Islam as a religion, no gods, no masters an' all that. Islamophobia however has a slghtly different meaning. The Runnymede Trust offers an eight point definition of islamophobia here one of which reads "Islam is seen as inferior to the West. It is seen as barbaric, irrational, primitive and sexist.", an attitude that Class War presumably are proud to share!

It goes without saying how divisive and damaging to the working class crass, schoolboy statements like this are, motivated I hope by immaturity and bravado rather than genuine prejudice.

The point will be argued that Islam is not a race, a boring arguments which merely shows an understanding of the lack of scientific validity of the term race. The OED defines race as: "3 a group of people sharing the same culture, language, etc.; an ethnic group. 4 a group of people or things with a common feature."

adding

"USAGE Some people now feel that the word race should be avoided, because of its associations with the now discredited theories of 19th-century anthropologists and physiologists about supposed racial superiority. Terms such as people, community, or ethnic group are less emotionally charged."

So can we let Class War off on a technicality? .. I think not. As both the right and the left are lining up to lay into the Muslim community , perhaps it's time to remember the atrocities carried out in the name of the cross, or even the athiestic and murderous instincts of Stalin and Hitler.

All of the religions named by Class War (and that includes Buddhists, you pseudo-fluffy feudalists you) have carried out atrocities, and all should be open to criticism and debate. But to single out one over the others, or to presume to deny the right of freedom of religion carries the charges of both racism and authoritarianism and Class War are treading a dangerous and sadly well trodden path.

what i thought

 

[Luther Blissett]

what i thought

What we thought too.
Read the full article here: http://johnnyvoid.blogspot.com/2006/06/class-war-racist-and-proud.html

 

[BAKU9]

What a load of old sanctimonious old guff.

 

[treelover]

Rather vicious attack that, Mr Void, i hope you are right in your facts..

 

[darren redparty]

a few nights go penn and tellers bullshit programme examined the bullshit around that 'saint on earth' the dalai lama, and weighed the crimes of the buddhistpriestocracy against that of thechinese occupation,
they concluded that in the baslance the medievalist mumbo jumbalists were tghe 'lesser evil'; then they quite rightly pointed out that the 'lesser evil' is STILL FUCKING EVIL!
Class War is condemned (ha!) for considering Islam

barbaric, irrational, primitive and sexist

yep it is. So are all religions

The person writing this has obviously never read a copy of class war

It seems strange then that in a Christian country Class War should choose to focus on Islam rather than the religion of the society we live in

if the writer had it would have noticed our regular CWACKERS page (class war against christian wankers,) an entire page given over every issue to taking on the christians twats.
I alsonotice that rowan atkinsons name was left out by jonnyviod his inclusion as an islamophobe was due to his opposition to the religious hatred bill. A law that would have made the following

All of the religions named by Class War (and that includes Buddhists, you pseudo-fluffy feudalists you) have carried out atrocities, and all should be open to criticism and debate.

a crime, and a law that the islamotrots welcomed.

In its desparation to prevent its terminal decline the leninists have tied themselves to an obscurantist and fundamentally reactionary religious/political movement, Islamism.
They have lost any last lingering sight of the supposed object that, I assume, brought most of them into politics, the self-emancipation of the working class, and in their despair at the inexplicable refusal of the proletariat to listen to their vanguard have decided that;
'it just can't be the message, (that was revealed by lenin and trotsky and all of the saints and must never be challenged), it can't be the messengers ( who all have their degrees to prove their commitment and intelligence), it must the audiance who are ignorant and rude, buy their clothes at primark and just won't listen! they're smelly and poor and probrably all racists!
lets talk to that nice imam, when he tells his flock what to do they don't argue, wouldn't it be nice if all the proles were like that'

 

[soulman]

What we thought too.
Read the full article here: http://johnnyvoid.blogspot.com/2006/06/class-war-racist-and-proud.html

At least you recognise the inherent weakness that undermines your whole argument. As you say Islam is not a race. It's a monotheistic religion.

 

[Paul Marsh]

Luther Blissett is Julie Waterson in drag, and I claim my five pounds!

 

[kyser_soze]

"3 a group of people sharing the same culture, language, etc.; an ethnic group. 4 a group of people or things with a common feature."

Interesting - the next time someone slags off the US or Australia by saying they're all idiots, wankers, etc etc I assume that everyone who applies this particular definition of 'race' to 'racism' will be quick to point it out?

As if.

 

[smokedout]

so what definition of race would you use?

 

[kyser_soze]

I'd be more than happy to use the one above provided it was applied equally to all nations, but quite simply it isn't. I've seen posters make comments about North Americans and Australians that under that definition would be called racist.

But apparently Autralians and Americans aren#t a race, and calling all Americans 'wankers' simply because they're American isn't racism because Americans are 'oppressors'...

So when there's another round of anti-Americanism on the boards I assume that you'll all be piling in to point out that while calling the American administration isn't racist (just as calling the Iranian Theocracy 'conservative aresholes' isn't racist), saying that 'all Americans are ignorant, war mongering idiots' (or similar) is.

And you know what? In nearly 5 years of posting on Urban i've seen this definition ignored as a justification for remarks that made about a developing nation or Islam would be roundly denounced as racism.

My issue isn't with the definition, but in it's application. Besides, pointing out that 'there was no mention of christianity except for the Jerry Springer opera'...well, it's Islam that's making the running in the news at the moment innit? If the Sikhs or Hindus had killed a load of people in London last year and flown 3 planes into buildings in the US do you think Muslims would be taking the shit? No, they wouldn't.

 

[Paul Marsh]

All of the religions named by Class War (and that includes Buddhists, you pseudo-fluffy feudalists you) have carried out atrocities, and all should be open to criticism and debate. But to single out one over the others, or to presume to deny the right of freedom of religion carries the charges of both racism and authoritarianism and Class War are treading a dangerous and sadly well trodden path.

what i thought

There have been 17 issues of Class War published since London CW took over editing the paper.

11 issues have carried anti-religious articles. Of those articles:

8 have criticised Christianity, or the behaviour of certain christian churches

4 have criticised Islam, or Islamic fundamentalists

2 have dissed Jehovahs Witnesses

1 criticised some adherents of Sikhism (following the intimidation of a Sikh playright in Birmingham)

1 criticised Hari Krishna's

Oddly none of the above articles produced any of the liberal hand wringing we have seen on this thread.

Can I venture that it is only because "Islamaphobia" is the current cause celebre of much of what remains of the left, that a few people have got their knickers in a twist now?

 

[Hanoipete]

"it's Islam that's making the running in the news at the moment innit? If the Sikhs or Hindus had killed a load of people in London last year and flown 3 planes into buildings in the US do you think Muslims would be taking the shit? No, they wouldn't"

Yeah they would have invaded a couple of European countries, set up gulags, rendered people, torutured people, killed women and kids in the tens of thousands at least...you prick. Islam makes the running in the news because the news presses are controlled by the same poeple who like to invade wog countries and slaughter them to get at their natural resources, same as ever. And twats like you think there will be no response from anyone. you really should go suck **********

You bunch of fucking wankers the lot of you. Class War you are a fucking joke. Student fucking debating society cunts with long term mental issues. You aren't anarchists, you are nihilists, you are anything but anarchist.

You would have been saying the same thing about Jews in the 30's...sticking to their own, not speaking proper English, starting radical political movements that supported violence, running criminal gangs, not mixing. You'd have been right in there. As many of the left were in fact.

You're all a load of fucking nobheads, trying to gain respect from the big boys, trying to show how you share the right's views so you can bathe in their reflected hatred.

I didnt see you complaining about the Afghan guy stabbed in the chest outside Whitechapel Station and wrapped in George Cross and left to die. Or the 1000% increase in attacks on non-whites since 9-11, easier to try and get bigger boys to be your mates, you shithouses.

 

[Roadkill]

all people who use religion as a way of restricting the life, rights, freedoms and responsibilities of others, whether the pope and his stance on contraception, the zionists who use the bible as an excuse to repress the palestinians, the imams and mullah who encourage the dispossed to suicide atrocities, our glorious leaders who are subtly trying to make islam an enemy.

also enemies are racists of every hue.

i've no real problem with religious people per se. whatever gets them through their day. but justifying prejudice and greed and hatred on religious grounds makes 'em my enemy.

and members of the left who ally themselves with the forces of religious conservatism and then make racist accusations against anyone whose not on team. they're my enemy too.

people who aren't my enemy: decent, tolerant, and honest human beings regardless of belief system. hot chicks.

Top post, bluestreak.

 

[kyser_soze]

OI, aren#t you the big man, eh? Lots of insults on a message board eh? Make you feel sexy does it?

Listen, prior to 9/11 it was Eastern European asylum seekers who were both those being derided in the press and getting the 'most opressed' badge of honour from the left. Now that's been switched to Muslims because of the actions of their 'brothers'.

Why didn't I complain about the Afghan guy? Well I didn't see the story in the news so it's kinda hard when you AREN'T AWARE of one of the countless things that happen (incidentally, do you have a link to that?)

TBH tho, you're little more than a teeny weeny child on the internet, screaming because someone has disagreed with you and that makes them 'racist'.

Tosser

 

[Luther Blissett]

"it's Islam that's making the running in the news at the moment innit? If the Sikhs or Hindus had killed a load of people in London last year and flown 3 planes into buildings in the US do you think Muslims would be taking the shit? No, they wouldn't"

Yeah they would have invaded a couple of European countries, set up gulags, rendered people, torutured people, killed women and kids in the tens of thousands at least...you prick. Islam makes the running in the news because the news presses are controlled by the same poeple who like to invade wog countries and slaughter them to get at their natural resources, same as ever. And twats like you think there will be no response from anyone. you really should go suck **********

You bunch of fucking wankers the lot of you. Class War *Federation* you are a fucking joke. Student fucking debating society cunts with long term mental issues. You aren't anarchists, you are nihilists, you are anything but anarchist.

Haha. More like antichrist. You're wrong about 'Class War' I support 'Class War' but not this fakery of a 'Federation'. Pay for membership of Class War? In this digital age? Fuck off!

You would have been saying the same thing about Jews in the 30's...sticking to their own, not speaking proper English, starting radical political movements that supported violence, running criminal gangs, not mixing. You'd have been right in there. As many of the left were in fact.

As a Jewish Anarchist myself, what can I say? Your assumption is believable. The techniques of scapegoating are tried and tested. Class War Federation are fakers.

You're all a load of fucking nobheads, trying to gain respect from the big boys, trying to show how you share the right's views so you can bathe in their reflected hatred.

They are. I'm certain that Original 80s Class Warriors would agree with you.

I didnt see you complaining about the Afghan guy stabbed in the chest outside Whitechapel Station and wrapped in George Cross and left to die. Or the 1000% increase in attacks on non-whites since 9-11, easier to try and get bigger boys to be your mates, you shithouses.

They're pushing a common line. Look for the common thread shared across several ultra-'left' groups, and it will lead you all the way to .........

 

[Paul Marsh]

They're pushing a common line. Look for the common thread shared across several ultra-'left' groups, and it will lead you all the way to .........

Is this Fabian's first attempt to start pushing his (and Stewart Home's) old chestnut that the far-left is the same as the far-right, all anarchists are racists etc

 

[Luther Blissett]

No, Paul.
Those 'old chestnuts' were well and truly roasted a decade ago, and related to National/Green Anarchism which split from the National Front.

Instead of trying to find out 'who', you ought to be asking yourselves 'why'.

Anyway. Some sad old news. I just found out that Paul Avrich died in February of this year, aged 74. A brilliant Anarchist Historian, he was twice nominated for a Pulitzer Prize for history.

In 1997, he told Q, the magazine of Queens College, that what had first drawn him to studying anarchists was their courage.

He said that anarchists confronted communists, saying, “We know what you’re after. You want to take over the government. You’re making revolution for yourselves, not for the workers.”

“I felt it was the truth,” Avrich said. “And they had the guts to say it. These people had great integrity.”

Paul Avrich

 

[kyser_soze]

Those 'old chestnuts' were well and truly roasted a decade ago, and related to National/Green Anarchism which split from the National Front.

Would that make them a shibboleth?

(always wanted to use that word in correct context...)

 

[ViolentPanda]

And I'll say 'The same as everyone else little Johnny - absolutely sweet FA because no one could agree on what class they were, most of the left had by that point successfully alienated most of their natural support so all that was left were the facists and the statist-democrats. Which is why everything is so completely FUCKED for you'

But kyser, surely your sterling work supporting the peasant farmers of Peru and Bolivia counts for something?

 

[Hanoipete]

class war are not anarchists. you are Dickheadists, weak little twats you (as a group) deserve fuck all but contempt. look at all that shit on that `class war split` thread. just fucking bollocks. unfuckingbelievable you deluded blinkered dickwads.

Big up Luther.

 

[kyser_soze]

But kyser, surely your sterling work supporting the peasant farmers of Peru and Bolivia counts for something?

I'm still waiting for the Evo/Morales 'Coca Growers Cooperative' brand

 

[bluestreak]

thanks for the link luther, i'd only heard of that fella. i'm going to have to do some more reading!

 

[Luther Blissett]

you're welcome, bluestreak who are you reading at the moment?

class war are not anarchists. you are Dickheadists, weak little twats you (as a group) deserve fuck all but contempt. look at all that shit on that `class war split` thread. just fucking bollocks. unfuckingbelievable you deluded blinkered dickwads.

Big up Luther.

thanks, i think, Hanoipete.
the cartoon-marxist class war is over.

2006/06/cwm-class-war-membership-is-free.html
2006/06/news-cw-logo-redesign-competition.html

 

[Tom A]

I once did have a small interest in anarchism, and activsim, albeit one eroded over years of fustration.

But this thread and the "class war split" thread have conspired to kill that stone dead, as it underlines exactly what is wrong with the "movement", and how a revolution based on the ideas of these groups would soon turn into a neo-Stalinist nightmare ie "think the way we think or else".

I give the Socialist Party credit, they do at least have a clear idea of what needs to be done and spend more time doing it (judging by the one Univeristy group meeting I managed to attend last year).

 

[smokedout]

Paul

For the record luther blisset did not write the article, ive never met him and had never even heard of him till this morning, neither was i aware of the difficulties emerging on the other thread

i wrote that piece believe it or not, completely based on the piece in your newswire

as an anarchist i thought about it for a couple of days, but then felt it had to be addressed, as i found it such a frightening and dangerous statement

have you read the runnymede definition of islamophobia, do you really wish for CWF to be aligned with these principles

1) Islam is seen as a monolithic bloc, static and unresponsive to change.
2) Islam is seen as separate and 'other'. It does not have values in common with other cultures, is not affected by them and does not influence them.
3) Islam is seen as inferior to the West. It is seen as barbaric, irrational, primitive and sexist.
4) Islam is seen as violent, aggressive, threatening, supportive of terrorism and engaged in a 'clash of civilisations'.
5) Islam is seen as a political ideology and is used for political or military advantage.
6) Criticisms made of the West by Islam are rejected out of hand.
7) Hostility towards Islam is used to justify discriminatory practices towards Muslims and exclusion of Muslims from mainstream society.
8) Anti-Muslim hostility is seen as natural or normal.

because youve now told every muslim that comes onto your site that you endorse the above

it is not a valid criticism of religious oppression, it is a flippant piece that genuinely seeks to align itself with what is considered by most racism

class war is a name almost synonymous with the anarchist community in the minds of the public at large

i would have hoped that anarchists would be able to provide support for minority communities under attack, but i can imagine the distrust that may be felt from those communities were a piece like that on one of our most well known media outlets is allowed to run unchallenged

im sorry if you feel differently, but i hope how you can see that that piece would be interpretated by most readers (regardless of the intention, and as ive said i hope that the intention was not genuine prejudice)

i brought up the march for free expression btw because thats when i first became aware of the dangerous allegiance against islam between the left and the far right.

im of the opinion it needs to be addressed now whilst small it can be nipped in the bud. i saw echoes of that way of thinking in the piece i criticised and from some of the comments ive seen about responding to it, it seems the criiticisms of it are much the same as the criticism i received from the bnp when i had a go at the march for free expression

so thats why i wrote it

 

[Tom A]

Playing devil's advocate (or being an appoligist for islamophobia depending on YO)

Islam is seen as inferior to the West. It is seen as barbaric, irrational, primitive and sexist.

Well they are a lot of people claiming to be Muslims who are IMO guilty of being "barbaric, irrational, primitive and sexist". (Mind you the same goes for Christians and probably subscribers of any belief or idelology).

Islam is seen as violent, aggressive, threatening, supportive of terrorism and engaged in a 'clash of civilisations'.

Likewise, there are a lot of people who committ terrorism in the name of Islam (although others point out that terrorism is stricly haraam), and there have been many "Jews" and "Christians" who have committed acts of terror.

Islam is seen as a political ideology and is used for political or military advantage.

Some do indeed use Islam as such.

I am not condemming Islam outright, just highlighting that there ARE people out there who will use it to justify all kinds of autrocites, true of any religious practice. However they are also good people who believe that war, terror and hatred go against their beliefs as Muslims/Christians/Jews/etc, and I don't like it when they get tarred with the same brush as the people who think it's ok to martyr yourself on a bus or to force women to wear burqas, and that homosexuals should be stoned to death.

 

[BAKU9]

But this thread and the "class war split" thread have conspired to kill that stone dead, as it underlines exactly what is wrong with the "movement", and how a revolution based on the ideas of these groups would soon turn into a neo-Stalinist nightmare ie "think the way we think or else".

Another person on here who believes being anarchists means you cant fuck off dead wood-amazing!

No doubt splitting up with your other half in your 'ideal revolution' would be unforgivable too

 

[The Black Hand]

Another person on here who believes being anarchists means you cant fuck off dead wood-amazing!

No doubt splitting up with your other half in your 'ideal revolution' would be unforgivable too

You are starting to irritate me shithead. FFS, your politics and principles look as non existent as your belief in a diverse movement - one that is, after all, necessary for political progress...

 

[smokedout]

I alsonotice that rowan atkinsons name was left out by jonnyviod his inclusion as an islamophobe was due to his opposition to the religious hatred bill.

can you offer a link at to where islamophobiawatch denounce Rowan Atkinson as an islamophobic bigot? ive searched their site and cant find anything remotely like that, maybe its just me