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Islamo-Fascism

nino_savatte said:
Most of us live under an elected dictatorship

An elected dictatorship where the elected dictator has said he'll leave office within the next 12 months if he isn't forced from office far sooner. And you talk about the Americans using emotive language.:)
 
goldenecitrone said:
An elected dictatorship where the elected dictator has said he'll leave office within the next 12 months if he isn't forced from office far sooner. And you talk about the Americans using emotive language.:)

Aye, Blair is suffering from the same condition as [Sir] Alex Ferguson did a few years ago when he said he was going to "retire". He never did.
 
nino_savatte said:
Aye, Blair is suffering from the same condition as [Sir] Alex Ferguson did a few years ago when he said he was going to "retire". He never did.

I'm sure Blair will be gone before Man U get knocked out of the Champion's League, though it could be a close run thing.
 
Bee Democracy

goldenecitrone said:
An elected dictatorship where the elected dictator has said he'll leave office within the next 12 months if he isn't forced from office far sooner. And you talk about the Americans using emotive language.:)

What strikes me is that Blair is probably the most powerful man in Britain outside the direct capitalist management, but I never got to vote on that - only the electors of Sedgefield (and possibly the Labour MPs) did. I've been wasting my time on this game much of my life and I've NEVER voted for a successful MP! Whereas a lot of people who read the Sun never vote for anything else, I reckon. From where I'm standing, elected dictatorships leave much to be desired!:p
 
goldenecitrone said:
I'm sure Blair will be gone before Man U get knocked out of the Champion's League, though it could be a close run thing.

It remains to be seen and given his propensity for bending the truth, I think the party are literally going to have to break his fingers in order to break his hold on power.
 
nino_savatte said:
As for "Western democracies", praytell what do you mean by that phrase? Most of us live under an elected dictatorship, though you would see it differently and are quite prepared to support it and apologise for its failings.
We have had this discussion several times on threads that are devoted to discussing the concept of "democracy", so unless you have zero memory about discussions that you yourself took part in, you know full well what I mean. Alternatively you could go back and find them if you need reminding.

I wonder if you have ever spent any amount of time in a *real* dictatorship nino?

Your main gripe seems to be that the public don't elect extremist whack-jobs who spout the same utter rubbish that you do. You explain your total failure to persuade people to your case by saying that your ideas are being repressed and kept out of mainstream political process, but the truth is that you are an extremist and sideline yourself with your own rubbish.
 
TeeJay said:
We have had this discussion several times on threads that are devoted to discussing the concept of "democracy", so unless you have zero memory about discussions that you yourself took part in, you know full well what I mean. Alternatively you could go back and find them if you need reminding.

I wonder if you have ever spent any amount of time in a *real* dictatorship nino?

Your main gripe seems to be that the public don't elect extremist whack-jobs who spout the same utter rubbish that you do. You explain your total failure to persuade people to your case by saying that your ideas are being repressed and kept out of mainstream political process, but the truth is that you are an extremist and sideline yourself with your own rubbish.

You know something, Teejay? You're a tedious auld windbag who presumes far too much. How the fuck did you come up with this?

Your main gripe seems to be that the public don't elect extremist whack-jobs who spout the same utter rubbish that you do.

Your imagination is running wild again, either that or you're on heavy medication.

I wonder if you have ever spent any amount of time in a *real* dictatorship nino?

And what does that have to do with anything? The truth is you're a cantankerous auld bore with a rather overinflated opinion of his own thoughts. You've no real ideas, you just regurgitate the 'mantra'.

Nothing like the sound of one-hand clapping - eh?
 
nino_savatte said:
Your imagination is running wild again, either that or you're on heavy medication.
What kind of medication would that be then?

What does that have to do with anything?

That you wouldn't know repression or an anti-democratic dictatorship if it pissed in your face basically, that you are a clueless idiot who bleats "dictatorship", rubbishes democracy yet has no alternative to offer and no coherent political ideas to speak of, just negative, angst-filled bleating, whining and whinging.

...and that you can't remember the many times I have discussed what a democracy is with you previously (or are to lazy to go back and check the relevant threads).

All-in-all a waste of time really.
 
TeeJay said:
What kind of medication would that be then?

What does that have to do with anything?

That you wouldn't know repression or an anti-democratic dictatorship if it pissed in your face basically, that you are a clueless idiot who bleats "dictatorship", rubbishes democracy yet has no alternative to offer and no coherent political ideas to speak of, just negative, angst-filled bleating, whining and whinging.

...and that you can't remember the many times I have discussed what a democracy is with you previously (or are to lazy to go back and check the relevant threads).

All-in-all a waste of time really.

You continue to presume too much, Teejay and I'm enjoying watching you make a tit of yourself. :D
 
zion said:
Yes, Bush used bombs during the invasion. What did you seriously expect him to use? Can you name me one case of any side in any war that has limited itself to means that do not kill civilians?

Believe it or not, the invasion of Iraq was a much more criminal act than 9/11, IMO. It was based on spite, greed, 'fixed' intelligence, and a plan that was written before Bush even got into office by his neo-con friends. What happened in Iraq was not a real war - it was an illegal invasion of a non-threatening country - it was a war crime - and BushBlairco all deserve to be punished just as much as the perpetrators of 9/11, if not more, because it fraudulently led to their own soldiers being killed for a lie.

Bush used the tragedy of 9/11 as an excuse to do something that he already had a plan for - he didn't give a damn for the people of Iraq, or the soldiers of his own country, any more than the terrorists gave a damn for the people in the WTC. There is ample proof of this - the use of illegal weapons, the whole 'collateral damage' thing - 'We don't do body counts', the demolition of whole cities with civilian population, the divvying up the spoils with his mates - I could go on.

Regarding BL, a couple of fuzzy videos - one of them very dubious as to ID, don't amount to proof in my mind. The same applies to statements obtained under torture. Do you remember the phony visual 'proof' with which Powell attempted to convince the UN that this war was necessary?
 
Fuzzy videos released by al-Qaeda themselves

You're arguing that poor sound and visual quality compromises the videos' probative value? That might be an argument if they were released by the US government, but is not relevant for videos released by al-Qaeda. Surely the fact that they don't have adequately high-resolution video quality in whatever cave they're hiding out in does not mitigate the fact that they themselves are producing this video of pre-9/11 footage in order to take responsibility for, and glory in, the attack.

Believe it or not, the invasion of Iraq was a much more criminal act than 9/11, IMO.

I do believe that that's your opinion. I don't believe that you appreciate the gravity or the evil of what the 9/11 attackers did.

We agree that killing people is presumptively a bad thing. I am no fan of George Bush. What I do not understand is how you can argue that an incompetently planned and poorly executed war is "much more criminal" than the malevolent mass slaughter of innocent civilians.

Let's say that Bush went to war in order to ensure a reliable oil supply ("greed") - though I don't think that was the only or even the predominant factor. If that is so, then the war is a massive failure that argues incompetence rather than malevolence.

Let's say that Bush went to war to take revenge for his father and to "get" Saddam Hussein ("spite") - though again I don't think that was the main factor. If that is so, then he has been successful in unseating a spectacularly unpleasant dictator and instituting democratic elections. Even taking into account the terrible security situation on the ground - which is partly his fault - the man deserves some kudos for that.

Bush and his administration did sex up the intelligence, ignore the CIA, and use that sexed-up intelligence to justify a war they had already decided to wage. They deserve condemnation for that and possibly, in the case of Bush, impeachment.

I do think, though, that another factor in his thinking was a real desire to bring what he considers to be freedom to Iraq. I may be giving him too much credit, but everything I have seen of him over the course of seven years suggests to me that on some level he really does believe in this. He comes under fire from more isolationist conservatives precisely because of this messianic strain in his character. They would prefer to see him intervene only when the US's critical interests are at stake.

It is also a mistake to suppose that he doesn't care about his own soldiers' lives. Yes, he could have done more to protect their lives, starting with not launching the war in Iraq and continuing with providing them with better armored vehicles. But it is clear in this war that the quality of care the soldiers receive, on the field and off, is streets ahead of Vietnam-era care and is a major factor in keeping US military deaths well below those of the Vietnam war.

You have a much harder task than me here. I have only to demonstrate why Bush, even if evil in some ways, is less evil than Osama bin Laden. You have to demonstrate why he is more. Therefore, I can prove my point merely by asking you: what is Osama bin Laden waging, if not his own private, pre-emptive war against the "Zionist crusaders"? What is his genocidal hatred of Americans based on, if not on a set of thoroughly discredited prejudices about them? What freedom does Osama want to bring to you and to all of us - what votes, what education, and what human rights? Finally, what love can a man have for his own troops when he sends them out on missions where he intends from the beginning for them to die?

Regarding the destruction of "whole cities", which Iraqi city has been destroyed?
 
TeeJay said:
zion, that is a very intelligent, balanced and thoughtful post.

Unfortunately it probably won't have any impact on certain idiots who like shouting "fascist" at anything they dislike and spend far more time attacking western democracies than they do any real dictatorships.

I'd second that. I have also found subsequent posts from 'zion' to be "..intelligent, balanced and thoughtful..".
 
TeeJay said:
If you enjoy this kind of shit then you are one sad fuck.

I'll leave you to it.

Au contraire, it is you who is the sad fuck: all you can do is nitpick and make presumptions about other posters.

How about you Teejay? Have you ever lived under a tyrannical regime? I'll bet you haven't, you smug fuck.
 
zion said:
You're arguing that poor sound and visual quality compromises the videos' probative value? That might be an argument if they were released by the US government, but is not relevant for videos released by al-Qaeda. Surely the fact that they don't have adequately high-resolution video quality in whatever cave they're hiding out in does not mitigate the fact that they themselves are producing this video of pre-9/11 footage in order to take responsibility for, and glory in, the attack.

Wasn't the first of the fuzzy videos "found" in Afghanistan by the US? The one that doesn't look like BL.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/MOR112A.html

I do believe that that's your opinion. I don't believe that you appreciate the gravity or the evil of what the 9/11 attackers did.

IMO it is much more evil for an army to invade a country and kill tens of thousands of innocent civilians in a war based on lies than it is for a small group of people to carry out a terrorist attack and kill 3,000. I don't think you appreciate the gravity or evil of what Bush and his buddies did.
 
How would you expect them to get their hands on a bin Laden video?

The link you provided offered not a scintilla of evidence that it was faked. It stated that it was technically possible for it to be a fake. I'm sure that it is technically possible; I just have no actual evidence to think that it was.

All that you are doing, on the matter of who is more evil, is to restate your opinion. I know it's your opinion. If you want to convince me, then you will at least have to offer actual evidence of a malevolent desire by Bush to conquer and control the Muslim world while executing anyone who disagrees with him, which is roughly equivalent to bin Laden's desire for every Muslim and non-Muslim part of the world. You have to have something more than, *whirr* Bush is bad, Bush invaded Iraq *click*
 
zion said:
roughly equivalent to bin Laden's desire

You know what he wants? (Other than what he has said, which is the withdrawal of US forces from Saudi and of proxy forces from Palestine?)

Have you told the CIA?

Did he tell you this?

* narrows eyes *

You know where he is?
 
I am basing my analysis on his published writings, including his 1996 Declaration of War against the Americans, his 2002 Letter to the American People, and his 2004 electoral videotape to the American people.

In these documents, he states that:

People can "enter Paradise by killing you [Americans]"
"Terrorising you [the United States], while you are carrying arms on our land, is a legitimate and morally demanded duty."
"Whoever has destroyed our villages and towns, then we have the right to destroy their villages and towns. Whoever has stolen our wealth, then we have the right to destroy their economy. And whoever has killed our civilians, then we have the right to kill theirs."
He aims to bankrupt the US economy and destroy US power in the world. But beyond this, he wants to convert the US, as with all other countries, to Islam: "The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam ... You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator." He accuses Americans of practising incest, of being in hock to the Jews, of having invented AIDS. He asks Americans "to stop supporting Israel, and to end your support of the Indians in Kashmir, the Russians against the Chechens and to also cease supporting the Manila Government against the Muslims in Southern Philippines."
"If the Americans do not respond", he says, "then their fate will be that of the Soviets who fled from Afghanistan to deal with their military defeat, political breakup, ideological downfall, and economic bankruptcy."
"We fight because we are free men who don't sleep under oppression. We want to restore freedom to our nation, just as you lay waste to our nation. So shall we lay waste to yours."

That, basically, is what he wants, in his own words.
 
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