Islamism and fascism

[Streathamite]

agreed - that was playing to the Imams' gallery (assuming you mean the war against the French)

 

[belboid]

and to undercut them (the Imams, not the French)

 

[In Bloom]

that's the fella. and i would agree wholeheartedly with your analysis of him, and his idea of 'islamism'. and, as you say, that idea is not far off amillion miles away from OBL's etc. My point being to use him as an example of why saying 'Islamism is.....whatever' is actually all but meaningless, as Islamism means, well, whatever.

Fine, Islamism might be the wrong word, its not all that important, since it is fairly obvious what I meant. Can we please just discuss the issue instead of quibbling over semantics?

 

[Donna Ferentes]

No, it's the internet.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Well no, not if those semantic issues mean you can't say anything meaningful about Islamism as a whole.

 

[oisleep]

there's far too much anti-semanticism around on the internet

 

[belboid]

Fine, Islamism might be the wrong word, its not all that important, since it is fairly obvious what I meant. Can we please just discuss the issue instead of quibbling over semantics?

because it is not semantics. you have failed utterly to describe what you are talking aobut. you have used a commonplace word to mis-describe something, and are then claiming that it is obvious what you are talking about. it isnt.

Do you mean those elements of Islamism that are somewhat fascistic? If so, then you're right but utterly meaningless. If not, what do you mean? it isnt clear, and I dont think you are clear.

Donna's initial post still seems highly apposite.

Get specific - what do you mean? The Taliban? OBL? Even if those, I dont think they are fascistic except on a very superficial totalitarian=fascist understanding.

 

[In Bloom]

No, it's the internet.

 

[In Bloom]

because it is not semantics. you have failed utterly to describe what you are talking aobut. you have used a commonplace word to mis-describe something, and are then claiming that it is obvious what you are talking about. it isnt.

Do you mean those elements of Islamism that are somewhat fascistic? If so, then you're right but utterly meaningless. If not, what do you mean? it isnt clear, and I dont think you are clear.

Donna's initial post still seems highly apposite.

Get specific - what do you mean? The Taliban? OBL? Even if those, I dont think they are fascistic except on a very superficial totalitarian=fascist understanding.

As I already said, I am talking about

a theocratic political system, which aims to restore Islamic society to a mythical golden age of Islam, before the ulema became "corrupted" by modernity. Islamists [of the sort to which I refer] regard the world as being in a state of jahillyya (barbarism, ignorance), they aim to coopt the state in order to gain power and establish an Islamic society, this can be done through violent means or through peaceful political struggle.

 

[butchersapron]

Well no, not if those semantic issues mean you can't say anything meaningful about Islamism as a whole.

Surely all it means it that the OP needed some clarification of what he means by Islamism, which he later (briefly) gave - and could still (i hope) usefully expand on.

 

[belboid]

As I already said, I am talking about

but your second description doesnt really say anything either - other than 'we believe in 'proper Islam' - as does Ben Bella. Sorry, but that doesnt mean owt. Indeed you are almost saying ideology=fascism if you are going to argue that that is inherently fascistic.

 

[In Bloom]

but your second description doesnt really say anything either - other than 'we believe in 'proper Islam' - as does Ben Bella. Sorry, but that doesnt mean owt.

Actually, it means 'we believe in 'proper Islam' and we're going to force other people to practise it too'. It also espouses a particular vision of 'proper Islam' which is reactionary, mysoginistic and homophobic.

 

[belboid]

not from what you wrote it doesnt.

point out to whom youy are referring, and whether or not theres is a widespread belief or a one held by a small minority.

 

[In Bloom]

not from what you wrote it doesnt.

Yeah, I can see how "let's return to the days of the caliphate" could easily be mistaken for the politics of "soft-Islamism"

point out to whom youy are referring, and whether or not theres is a widespread belief or a one held by a small minority.

I mean people like OBL or the Muslim Brotherhood (at least in its earlier days, I don't know what its like in its modern form, but afaik its not that different from the time of al-Banna).

 

[Streathamite]

....others beat me to it whilst some techie was burning my bleedin ears off

 

[butchersapron]

Yeah, I can see how "let's return to the days of the caliphate" could easily be mistaken for the politics of "soft-Islamism"


I mean people like OBL or the Muslim Brotherhood (at least in its earlier days, I don't know what its like in its modern form, but afaik its not that different from the time of al-Banna).

It is though - and that's the problem. There's a world of difference between the Muslim Brothers and OBL despite some similiarities.

 

[In Bloom]

It is though - and that's the problem. There's a world of difference between the Muslim Brothers and OBL despite some similiarities.

Fairy snuff, disregard.

What I'm trying to get across (without much success, apparently ) is that I'm talking about the descendents of people like al-Banna and Maududi and their fellow travellers

 

[butchersapron]

Fairy snuff, disregard.

What I'm trying to get across (without much success, apparently ) is that I'm talking about the descendents of people like al-Banna and Maududi and their fellow travellers

I think what might be useful is getting out the book reffed in ther first post, seeing what Burke defines as Radical Islam and putting those characteristics on here and then going from that...

 

[In Bloom]

I think what might be useful is getting out the book reffed in ther first post, seeing what Burke defines as Radical Islam and putting those characteristics on here and then going from that...

Okay then, bear with me if I get anything wrong:

• A world view dominated by a the idea of a cosmic struggle between the forces of good (Islam) and evil (unbelief, western Capitalism, etc.)
• The aim of said struggle is to create an Islamic state, governed based on the more reactionary and authoritarian interpretations of Islam, of the sort extant in Iran.
• A strong focus on the outward manifestations of faith, from women wearing the veil to suicide bombing.
• Further to the above, the use of spectacular (and often violent) demonstrations of faith to act as both proof to the enemy that their faith is stronger than anything and as inspiration to others to act.

 

[JoePolitix]

Other sources say he is a 'mild' Islamist, the main source of most such quotes seem to be this interview

From that interview:

Ben Bella wrote "I am an Islamist. And I am an Islamist Pan-Arabist before I am an Algerian. The West tried hard and long to obliterate our Arab and Islamic culture. We Algerians are only too aware of this historical fact. That is why being a Muslim is an essential, a sacrosanct component of our identity."

It seems that Ben Bella, in his own words, describes himself as a “Islamist Pan-Arabist”. Note that in his own words he doesn’t prefix Islamism with an adjective signifying degree.

This is because the imposition of such an adjective is subjective and value-laden and thus tends to be the preserve of Western Orientalists who seek to impose their own idea of what Islamism is and what it is not without any reference to its self-proclaimed followers.

The Ben Bella quote above is very interesting because it neatly demonstrates that political Islam often has as much to do with culture and identity as it does with any sort of belief system. In many cases, particularly in national liberation struggles, Islamism often serves as a form of surrogate nationalism.

Take the case of Algerian independance struggle, the normarily secular FLN would often use religious symbolism against the French authorities. The French established ‘feminine societies’ and tried to get women to discard their veils and ‘dress western’. How did the FLN respond? They raised the veil as a symbol of resistance and used the slogan “for a free Algerian women – not free French Women”.

But like all forms of nationalism, the surrogate nationalism/religious nationalist hybrid as espoused by the pan Arabists will both gloss over class divisions and create outsides. When Ben Bella says ‘being is a Muslim is an estential’ you have to ask what this means for non-Muslim minorities in Algeria, think the Coptic Christians in Egypt. And pan-Arabism hasn’t been to kind to Berbers, Kurds and Jews either.

 

[belboid]

Fairy snuff, disregard.

What I'm trying to get across (without much success, apparently ) is that I'm talking about the descendents of people like al-Banna and Maududi and their fellow travellers

now why didnt you jsut say that in the first place, would have made life much easier.

As to Burkes list, it doesnt sound much like fascism to me.

 

[In Bloom]

now why didnt you jsut say that in the first place, would have made life much easier.

Post #5