Islam

[big footed fred]

Interesting, isn't it.... All non-Muslims "discussing" Islam and telling the other they "know" Islam. In complete disregard of the post (let alone interest in opening the link it contains) of a Muslim. Funny enough to watch but obviously you want to have a playground without any disturbance by a Muslim.
If any of you has serious questions on or about Islam, you can always PM me.

salaam.

My ideas about Islam have changed totally after my visits to Malaysia, The idea of the thread was to get an idea of what others here thought about the subject.
I would be very interested to know what your view is on the darker side of Islam and how you see the killing of people in the name of Allah.
I don't want you to think that I am having a go at any Muslim in any way here. My intention is to understand how Islam is seen by other non muslims.
At the same time I would be very interested to know where you are from (or your family) and how you, as a muslim, see the bombings in London and so on.

As I said before I have always been fed a poor image of Islam but having met so many moderate and very friendly Muslims I can't hold on to this bad view.
I still have a lack of understanding of this subject but am keen to learn more.

 

[Aldebaran]

American slang dictionary:

jet -- leave quickly

bail -- leave quickly

I leave such threads because I don't have much time to spend on boards like this and secondly: this is a language in which my vocabulary is limited and of which I have in fact no (grammatical) clue. Hence I prefer to engage in interesting discussions and leave the rest aside.

gored ox -- something important to you has been criticised.

No, it is not even close to be about this.
It is about loosing every interest in a thread where people are arguing among themselves. While completely ignoring information about the misinformation/misconceptions some defend and others refute (while missing the point).

salaam.

 

[Crispy]

I must say, I didn't notice your first post. I will now go and read your link.
Ah, never mind, I read that before - It's very interesting material, but I believe we trod all over that ground in another thread, no?

 

[Aldebaran]

are you seeking to suggest that, in some strange way, only Muslims are capable of engaging in a debate regarding Islam?

Everyone can "debate" anything but I don't call what goes on here a "debate".

And, even if you are Muslim, that does not entitle you or neccessarily mean that you are best placed to answer a question relating to Islam.
Or does it?

Why would it not, in your view?

salaam.

 

[Aldebaran]

I must say, I didn't notice your first post. I will now go and read your link.
Ah, never mind, I read that before - It's very interesting material, but I believe we trod all over that ground in another thread, no?

Maybe you did (and no, nothing much was said there since it got derailed by a "discussion" about the use of a word appliable for some Christians but not for Muslims).

All those dicussing the very same in this thread didn't read anything of it and hence repeat the very same ignorance I tried to clear up (at least some of it) with that thread.

salaam.

 

[Aldebaran]

My ideas about Islam have changed totally after my visits to Malaysia

I'm Middle Eastern, not familiar with Malayan situations I'm afraid.

I would be very interested to know what your view is on the darker side of Islam and how you see the killing of people in the name of Allah.

Read the thread under my link and open the link the ithe OP to get all your answers (summarized, of course)

I don't want you to think that I am having a go at any Muslim in any way here. My intention is to understand how Islam is seen by other non muslims.

I think you have already a portion of that

At the same time I would be very interested to know where you are from (or your family) and how you, as a muslim, see the bombings in London and so on.

My father was Middle Eastern, wher I was born and have my main residence. My mother was European where I have hence also family, friends, did some of my studies there etc....
If you read my thread you know my answer to your last question.

I still have a lack of understanding of this subject but am keen to learn more.

Which your OP already shows.

salaam.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

I leave such threads because I don't have much time to spend on boards like this and secondly: this is a language in which my vocabulary is limited and of which I have in fact no (grammatical) clue. Hence I prefer to engage in interesting discussions and leave the rest aside.

You're English is actually pretty good. We'll help with the local phrases and slang.

No, it is not even close to be about this.
It is about loosing every interest in a thread where people are arguing among themselves. While completely ignoring information about the misinformation/misconceptions some defend and others refute (while missing the point).

salaam.

Welcome to the Politics forum! TBH, you seem overly sensitive to criticism. I've seen you say things about Christianity that are about equal to what others have posted about Islam. We have a saying here, "If you can't take it don't dish it out." But, don't worry, my ox doesn't get gored over criticism of Christianity.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Which your OP already shows.

salaam.

Now you're acting like the butt-hole.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

This about sums up the divide between the cultures:

Muslim attitudes toward the West have hardened in the past year amid global conflict, with people of the Muslim faith likely to view Americans and Europeans as selfish, immoral and greedy, a new global poll shows.

Similarly, people in the United States and other Western nations regard Muslims as arrogant, violent, intolerant and disrespectful of women.

Proof of the deep divide between Westerners and Muslims showed up in a massive poll of 14,000 people, the latest installment of the Pew Global Attitudes Project to take stock of opinions of the world and the big issues of the day.

Although I found this part interesting:

The poll found that, in many respects, Muslims hold their anti-Western views more strongly than Westerners embrace anti-Muslim sentiments.

"Muslims are more discomforted with Westerners than Westerners are with Muslims," said Andrew Kohut, president of the Pew Research Center, the nonpartisan organization that is sponsoring the global surveys.

http://www.kentucky.com/mld/kentucky/news/politics/14880573.htm

 

[Aldebaran]

I've seen you say things about Christianity that are about equal to what others have posted about Islam.

Like I said earlier, and you prove it with this line: You didn't read any of my posts on this message board. If you had, you would have most certainly seen nothing of the kind, and on no single message board I ever made one post.

Would you say such a thing to me "in person", I would take it as a very direct, deliberate and very personal insult. (You claim I am capable of insulting the memory of my mother. Even leaving that aside you still very directly insult my intellect. Let's leave the idiocies to the idiots, shall we?)

salaam.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Would you say such a thing to me "in person", I would take it as a very direct, deliberate and very personal insult. (You claim I am capable of insulting the memory of my mother. Even leaving that aside you still very directly insult my intellect. Let's leave the idiocies to the idiots, shall we?)

salaam.

How bizarre. No one is insulting you or your mother. I'm simply trying to have an honest discussion with you. Chill dude.

 

[Aldebaran]

This about sums up the divide between the cultures:

No it does not. It is the reflection of policies aimed at influencing public opinion in the US/West.

You must have some idea of the gullibility and sheer ignorance of the targetted public when publishing such ridiculous (I would say criminal) assertions. All while the USA is occupying Iraq and killed tens of thousands of people there with the Flag Waving Support of the US street, and is drumming up the beats to try to sell that same public a criminal attack on Iran with ridiculous accusations.
It is aimed to make the public feel good. "Oh well, we killed some, but we are still the good guys because "they" hate us, see?"

By the way: How can such a "poll" claim to be able to compare if there is nothing similar done previously to compare it with?

salaam.

 

[Aldebaran]

How bizarre. No one is insulting you or your mother. I'm simply trying to have an honest discussion with you. Chill dude.

Interesting. You find posting obvious lies "honest discussion".

I repeat: I never posted one single word of even a remote critic on Christianity.
Possibly, now and then you shall reed in a few words my opinion on some people who call themselves "Christians" ( but whom I would not consider as such).

salaam.

 

[xiannaix]

and is drumming up the beats to try to sell that same public a criminal attack on Iran with ridiculous accusations.

Are you forgetting the bit about the freely elected President of Iran, who's nuclear program is for energy purposes only, declaring that Israel should be nuked?

The accusations that Iran is develping nukes is a great many thing but ridiculous is not one of them.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

The Pew Trust is a charity that operates independent of the US government and quite often provides data in opposition to its policies.

You forget that they surveyed Eastern peoples as well as Western. It shows that there is a huge divide in thought processes on very basic issues.

Do you deny that this divide exists? Or, do you just assume that you're view is always right?

 

[Aldebaran]

Are you forgetting the bit about the freely elected President of Iran, who's nuclear program is for energy purposes only, declaring that Israel should be nuked?

He never said such a thing.

The accusations that Iran is develping nukes is a great many thing but ridiculous is not one of them.

It is completely ridicuous.

salaam.

 

[Aldebaran]

The Pew Trust is a charity that operates independent of the US government and quite often provides data in opposition to its policies.

I have no shred of trust in any "non governmental" institutions, let alone "charities".

It shows that there is a huge divide in thought processes on very basic issues.

Do yo mean non US'ers don't reason like the average US'er? You don't need to go to Muslims for that. Go everywhere in Europe, Russia, China, Japan... whatever.

Do you deny that this divide exists? Or, do you just assume that you're view is always right?

I would first need to know what you talk about, no?

salaam.

 

[xiannaix]

He never said such a thing.

It is completely ridicuous.

salaam.

What did he mean when Ahmadinejad said Israel should be wiped off the map?


http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/15E6BF77-6F91-46EE-A4B5-A3CE0E9957EA.htm

in relevent part

As the Imam said, Israel must be wiped off the map," said Ahmadinejad, referring to Iran's revolutionary leader Ayat Allah Khomeini.

repeating the assertions of another as true and correct is called ratifying - you cannot claim Ahmadinejad's comments were anything other than bellicose.

Further, why does Iran, who sits on some of the world's largest energy reserves need nuclear energy?

To assert that Iran is doing anything other than moving forward with building a bomb is stinking your head in the sand. (Now, I partially believe this is no more than posturing to get concessions from the West but when a man who's the President of a country that is developing nuclear weapons tells you their enemy (and whose enemies Iran has been funding for years) should be wiped from the map - take the man at his word)

Do you deny that he said that Israel should be wiped from the map?

If not, do you deny that he means obliterated and destroyed militarily?

If not, do you think he'd nuke Israel?

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Do yo mean non US'ers don't reason like the average US'er? You don't need to go to Muslims for that. Go everywhere in Europe, Russia, China, Japan... whatever.

salaam.

What I am saying is that the vast cultural differences make it difficult for there to be peace between those cultures. I would submit that Eastern peoples have just as many misconceptions of Western culture as Western peoples have of Eastern culture. This is where the heart of a large share of the problems lie.

 

[Aldebaran]

What did he mean when Ahmadinejad said Israel should be wiped off the map?

No, he never said that. (There are a few threads on this.)

Further, why does Iran, who sits on some of the world's largest energy reserves need nuclear energy?

Why would that be your concern or better said: why do you think you have even remotely the "right" to question the right of Iran to keep up with scientific research and developments, in no matter which field?

To assert that Iran is doing anything other than moving forward with building a bomb is stinking your head in the sand.

Correction: to buy into ridiculous US lies is. Even more so in the light of the criminal invasion of the sovereign nation Iraq, based on criminal lies and violation of International Law.

Do you deny that he said that Israel should be wiped from the map?

Yes I do. Maybe you hear (and I mean that litteraly) more coming out of Iran then I do?

And to answer you last question: No. If only (and in case of Iran that is a ground nobody can ever wipe under the carpet) because that can't possibly be defended legally in Islam. Not in your wildest dreams it could.

salaam.

 

[xiannaix]

No, he never said that. (There are a few threads on this.)

give just a quick response as to the general nature or the denial made in those threads? Was he misquoted? Is it a lie? what?

Why would that be your concern or better said: why do you think you have even remotely the "right" to question the right of Iran to keep up with scientific research and developments, in no matter which field?

Because for years they've funded terrorists who atack Israel and because they have threatened to wipe Israerl off the map and because a fundamentalist dictatorship that has proven and direct ties to worldwide terrorist operations shouldn't be trusted with nuclear weapons?

You are burrying your head if you think Iran isn't developing the bomb. Its a general rule that new members to the club shouldn't be states with leadersip comprised of despotic lunatics like Iran or North Korea.

Correction: to buy into ridiculous US lies is. Even more so in the light of the criminal invasion of the sovereign nation Iraq, based on criminal lies and violation of International Law.

Not getting into that mess - we disagree greatly on the matter - we can agree on that.

 

[Aldebaran]

give just a quick response as to the general nature or the denial made in those threads? Was he misquoted? Is it a lie? what?

Read the threads.
By the way: What is a "terrorist" for one side is a fighter for the other. Would you say the USA is a terrorist nation, funding, training, supporting, terrorist groups/militia/governments and having itself a State trained and funded terrorist organisation (commonly called the CIA)? Every reasonable person would say "yes".
(There is no such thing as "fundamentalist" in islam. It is a US invented word to label certain Christians.)
For your information: If not for iran holding Hamas back , you would have seen a lot more violence coming from their militant wing. If you think that isn't a real danger and threat in case the US pushes its agenda in the region even further then it is already, think again.
The only thing you do - to begin with - is showing you have absolutely no clue as to what it requires to be able to build such a weapon. You clearly think it drops out of a reactor as soon as a nation picks up again its research on nuclear technology (which, may I remind you, Iran halted deliberately).
Come again when the USA and Israel have dismantled theirs. The greatest threat to world peace is the USA. The most adding to destabilising the region and in fact the world is however not the USA, but Israel. If you don't see that, you are as blind as a mole.

Thisis my last post on this issue. There are threads enough about "Iran" if you want to discuss this.
This one is supposed to be a thread on Islam/Muslims.

salaam.

 

[david dissadent]

Edited out. Thinking.

 

[Aldebaran]

What I am saying is that the vast cultural differences make it difficult for there to be peace between those cultures.

Why do you say that?

I would submit that Eastern peoples have just as many misconceptions of Western culture as Western peoples have of Eastern culture. This is where the heart of a large share of the problems lie.

It can never be a problem as long as one side doesn't want to exploit and dominate the other (and hence the other gets just a little bit tired of all that.)

salaam.

 

[xiannaix]

Read the threads.

Was hopiong you'd spare me the time and having to wad throuigh the BS - could you cut through the garnage for me and hit the important points?

By the way: What is a "terrorist" for one side is a fighter for the other. Would you say the USA is a terrorist nation, funding, training, supporting, terrorist groups/militia/governments and having itself a State trained and funded terrorist organisation (commonly called the CIA)? Every reasonable person would say "yes".

The CIA doesn't train people to fly airplanes inthe WTC or bomb the trains in Spain or the UK. Reasonable people aren't confused about that.

For your information: If not for iran holding Hamas back , you would have seen a lot more violence coming from their militant wing.

I believe that Iran restrains Hamas - however, had Iran not helped fund it Hamas could not have done as much damage as they have done.

The only thing you do - to begin with - is showing you have absolutely no clue as to what it requires to be able to build such a weapon. You clearly think it drops out of a reactor as soon as a nation picks up again its research on nuclear technology (which, may I remind you, Iran halted deliberately).

I am aware that the bombs don't just start popping out of machinery - I am quite aware that it is a long drawn out process. That's exactly why the West wants to stop them now.

Come again when the USA and Israel have dismantled theirs.

Lets consider the known fact that neithre has dropped any nuclear weapons on an enemy since 1945. Its a pretty strong argument that the US and Israel have shown restrain. Iran's leader calling for the wiping of Israel fropm the map does not fill one with the same sense of restraint. Additionally, Israel and the US are not despotic dictatorships run by irrational leaders.

The greatest threat to world peace is the USA.

lol

The most adding to destabilising the region and in fact the world is however not the USA, but Israel. If you don't see that, you are as blind as a mole.

If by that you mean all of her neighbors sending weapons and terrorists in to attacks Israel - then yes - Israel is a destabilizig presence.

Do you believe Israel has the right to exist btw?

Thisis my last post on this issue. There are threads enough about "Iran" if you want to discuss this.
This one is supposed to be a thread on Islam/Muslims.

salaam.

cool - PM me with the basic point on how Ahmadinejad didn't say what Al Jazeera said Ahmadinejad said - ty

 

[Aldebaran]

You must be really delusional to even dream one second that I would waste my time on doing your research for you. Used to have everything spoon-fed, are you?

salaam.

 

[hipipol]

To understand Islam

Try reading the Holy Qur'an
The Prophet tells all Muslims, among other things that ALL the people of the book, Jews and Christians are their brothers
When he was forced to leave Mecca and was layed siage to in Medina, his borhters, sisters and their children were given refuge by the Emperor of Ethiopia, Menelik I think, so he was no bgiot
It is worth bearing in mind that the Al Q agenda is to restore the Caliphate - the Ottoman Emperor was still regarded as the inheritor of this title until he was deposed after WW1 - witness Tipu Sutlans appeal to the Emperor when Mysore was beseiged by they British, who had broken their own treaty by attacking him
After WW1 EVERY Muslim majority country in the whole world was under western control, admittedly by proxy in Turkey, but EVERY other awowedly Muslim country had a Western Governor or was a vassal of a nearby Western colony. That sort of stuff tends to make peole just a tad suspicious
When these Rulers basically set about stealing everuyting they can and killing you when you object.....
Muslims, Christians and Jews have all lived to gether in the past - they did for instance in Iraq till Mossad started blowing up Jewish sites in order to scare the Jewish population into leaving for Isreal....
Nope, if Islam is now hostile to the West, well I cant say I am surprised, I mean if someone was killing your brothers having an innocent sunbathe, or putting 13 bulletts into your sister as she sat at her school desk, would you feel good about the slime bags who bankrolled them?
Tiem we cut off ALL ties with Isreal if we ever want to be percieved as NOT hostile to Islam
|It starts here.
Plank out of our eyes first
Unless of course you think any victim was "asking for it"
You will be ferfectly happy with the way things are

 

[hipipol]

Oh yeah, Xanax swallower

Cant see how what the Iranians presidents statement does to justify islamphobic bollocks
hes just one man
Or does it mean we all get tarred by the statements of the Blair/Bush complex?
Go grow some pubes you sinple halfwit, it'll distract from your feeble attempts at "thought"

 

[Boogie Boy]

Everyone can "debate" anything but I don't call what goes on here a "debate".



Why would it not, in your view?

salaam.

I've read through the posts that have followed on, and I note your rather dismissive posting style. If you object to the word 'debate' perhaps you would prefer 'discussion', which, as you would of course understand, implies some form of interchange or exchange of views. So when one is asked a question, it is usually polite to answer.

So I await yours.

BB

 

[Hanoipete]

how about the thousands of child rapes committed by one of the Christian church hierarchies. the judgements over AIDS that help condemn many to their deaths. and how christians deliberately start wars to gain control of resources which they know will lead to the killing of thousands of innocents, like it or not. how about a christian country America killing nearly six million in south east asia?