Is UKPol becoming the unofficial SWP bulletin board!

[Anotherfolky]

lol - who the fuck is talking about a popularity contest? Never mind the fact that pathetic internet polls really are most certainly not the types of things I'm going to take seriously anyway. This is exactly what I'm talking about.

The SWP is behind practically everything that is actually happening in this country at the moment. No 2 ID cards, Stop the War, Conference for Fighting Unions, No to Climate Change, etcetera. Noone else actually does or achieves anything. All that anyone else can do is sit around moping about the 'lack of democracy' in the SWP, or the willingness of the SWP to work alongside 'dirty Muslims' - basically creating ideological rifts between themselves and us simply in order to justfy their own completely and utterly ineffectual positions within society.

I have my issues with the SWP internal party structure, and I air them. But the merest thought of being a part of any other organisation as it stands is completely and utterly useless and futile - I'd just waste my time.

One thing you didnt mention is the SWPS politics which is largely where a lot of the problems with that organisation lie (and I have been a member), the problem with the 'lack of democracy' is just a symptom of that. Incidentally I doubt that anyone here and certainly none of the other left groups have used the phrase 'dirty Muslims'. It isnt working with Muslims that the swp has been criticised for its the political accommodation the party has or hasnt made to religeous leaders and appearing to appeal to the Muslim community on a communalist basis.
What has the SWP ever actually achieved by the way?

 

[Das Uberdog]

Politicised a massively broad new layer of new, young activists if nothing else. I'm sure lots of the other things I'd call achievements you'd find some way of discrediting, at least in your own personal view. The SWP certainly got me interested in the real movement - an acheivement as far as I'm concerned.

And all this talk of 'communalism' is rubbish too. 'teh omg, teh swp iz lyk teh wrkng wiv teh rspctd mmbrz ov da cmnty - OMMMMMM'.

A progression and a strengthening of the left is a progression and a strengthening of the left, whether or not that progression was brought about by means which weren't entirely pure in Marxist idealism.

 

[ViolentPanda]

what a thick twat

That seems to be a fair assessment of Mr. Vermouth's character.

Some people liken him to Richard Littlejohn, but I think of him more as a second-rate and slightly more stupid Garry Bushell myself.

 

[osterberg]

I would say the number of SWP posters has remained pretty consistant - the quality of the anti-SWP has definately gone down though and many seem limited to the 'wanker' response - which is not all that helpful in clarifying exactly what is so wrong or for that matter right with the SWPs actual politics.

And I'm saying that as someone who clearly does not have a high opinion of that organisation in the first place (and must admit to using the 'wanker' respose when irritated on occasion - which I've got to admit did not help much at the time...). Some of the Anti-Swappies I increasingly dislike more than some of the swappie posters here - they seem to have even less of an alternative to offer (apart from cynisism and disollusion)

Wanker!!

 

[Anotherfolky]

Politicised a massively broad new layer of new, young activists if nothing else. I'm sure lots of the other things I'd call achievements you'd find some way of discrediting, at least in your own personal view. The SWP certainly got me interested in the real movement - an acheivement as far as I'm concerned.

And all this talk of 'communalism' is rubbish too. 'teh omg, teh swp iz lyk teh wrkng wiv teh rspctd mmbrz ov da cmnty - OMMMMMM'.

A progression and a strengthening of the left is a progression and a strengthening of the left, whether or not that progression was brought about by means which weren't entirely pure in Marxist idealism.

Oh well I'd disagree oddly enough I think world events (Blairs wars etc) got a new generation of activists interested in the 'real movement' not the SWP. Perhaps to make it clearer I would have thought a marxist organisation (and lets be honest very few members of the swp are politically educated enough to be that) would appeal to ordinary Muslims on a class basis, rather than working with (often self appointed) religeous and 'community leaders'. Fine to build a specific campaign but its not the way to build a working class (in the political sense of the word) organisation and what happens when those religeous ideas come into conflict with the SWPs - who is going to accommodate to who?
One of the reasons I drifted out of the SWP (I didnt even have to leave it was that badly organised) is that lack of critical thinking among a large number of its members, alas I doubt that has changed.

 

[Das Uberdog]

The biggest problem with introducing Muslims and many religious folk into the arena of left-wing politics is more to do with showing them how their religion and culture are compatible with left politics. To a certain extent, some religious cultures are not. Long term, the treatment of women as second-class citizens and homophobia are two aspects which I feel may prevent many religious people from becoming entirely progressive in the immediate future, but the fact is that there is still room for improvement and there is still the will to change things. Even if it's not the most progressively minded of things.

Do you oppose working with Tories in Stop the War? How about lining up with New Labour at an anti-fascist demo? Practically building a movement involves untied fronts - united fronts which aren't purist in politics. The anger and resentment is present within the Muslim community whether we like it or not - and it will be expressed whether we like it or not. We simply give them an outlet which is acceptable to them at their current level of class consciousness.

 

[Anotherfolky]

The biggest problem with introducing Muslims and many religious folk into the arena of left-wing politics is more to do with showing them how their religion and culture are compatible with left politics. To a certain extent, some religious cultures are not. Long term, the treatment of women as second-class citizens and homophobia are two aspects which I feel may prevent many religious people from becoming entirely progressive in the immediate future, but the fact is that there is still room for improvement and there is still the will to change things. Even if it's not the most progressively minded of things.

Do you oppose working with Tories in Stop the War? How about lining up with New Labour at an anti-fascist demo? Practically building a movement involves untied fronts - united fronts which aren't purist in politics. The anger and resentment is present within the Muslim community whether we like it or not - and it will be expressed whether we like it or not. We simply give them an outlet which is acceptable to them at their current level of class consciousness.

I think you are confusing the SWP with (for example) the anti-war movement, of course its entirely correct to work with anyone in a specific campaign over a specific issue but under no circumstances does that include losing what is supposed to make the SWP specific and different (i.e a supposed class based understanding). There is also a significant difference between a united front such as the Stop the War movement and a more strategic alliance such as Respect, which involves standing in elections on a common programme with people (for example) who may well be homophobic, have different lines on abortion etc etc and sorry but either long term wise the alliance will be meaningless or someone will have to accommodate.
As for the anger inside the Muslim community, then the way to approach that is to offer an alternative to the religeous leaders whilst struggling alongside in joint campaigns isnt it and I dont see the SWP doing that.
I also think you are generalising a little in your references to the 'Muslim Community', if such a thing exists it is no more homogeneous than any other 'community'.

 

[treelover]

I,ve got muslim friends and they can't stand SWP/Respect or the reactionary mullahs, Hitz, etc, either.

 

[Das Uberdog]

...

So what, exactly?

 

[Groucho]

I think you are confusing the SWP with (for example) the anti-war movement, of course its entirely correct to work with anyone in a specific campaign over a specific issue but under no circumstances does that include losing what is supposed to make the SWP specific and different (i.e a supposed class based understanding). There is also a significant difference between a united front such as the Stop the War movement and a more strategic alliance such as Respect, which involves standing in elections on a common programme with people (for example) who may well be homophobic, have different lines on abortion etc etc and sorry but either long term wise the alliance will be meaningless or someone will have to accommodate.
As for the anger inside the Muslim community, then the way to approach that is to offer an alternative to the religeous leaders whilst struggling alongside in joint campaigns isnt it and I dont see the SWP doing that.
I also think you are generalising a little in your references to the 'Muslim Community', if such a thing exists it is no more homogeneous than any other 'community'.

This is a sensible post.

I tend to agree except in the way you see e.g. Respect. Respect does not compromise on issues such as a womans right to choose or homophobia. Respect is very vocally for LGBT rights, and for a womans right to choose. In the recently published Respect pamplet on where we stand LGBT rights (and womens rights) were given as much prominance as any other major issue including the war. The 'leftist' critique of respect amounts to the dangerous and inaccurate slander that 'you must be compromising on homophobia and womans rights because there are Muslims involved and all Muslims are biggots.'

So I think that the SWP are doing precisely what you say we ought to be doing. Working alongside people on areas of common agreement such as opposition to the war or against the BNP in broad based united front campaigns. Organising alongside others in a broad based electoral united front that has a much tighter political position on a much wider range of issues. At the same time the SWP maintains its independence as a revolutionary Marxist organisation. Within the broader organisations we debate issues of difference in a non-sectarian way. We are offering an alternative to the religious leaders (and to reformists) whilst struggling alongside in joint campaigns.

 

[TeeJay]

lol - who the fuck is talking about a popularity contest?

I am not talking about a popularity contest.

I am saying that maybe you don't have a good idea of the political views of the posters on u75 and that a few posters making a lot of noise doesn't necessarily reflect what the wider membership think.

If someone said they had come here 'for a laugh' then it is relevant what people here actually think politically.

This thread is all about the support (or otherwise) for the SWP here on u75, so presumably it would be interesting to anyone who has bothered taking part in this thread what posters on u75 actually think politically speaking, and where their sympathies actually lie.

What do you think the break down on u75 actually is?

 

[TeeJay]

Just to follow up on some other comments you made:

...Never mind the fact that pathetic internet polls really are most certainly not the types of things I'm going to take seriously anyway. This is exactly what I'm talking about...

You like to make sweeping statements about u75. A poll of people here is a far better way of seeing what people think than you making stuff up having been here for a few days only.

The SWP is behind practically everything that is actually happening in this country at the moment. No 2 ID cards, Stop the War, Conference for Fighting Unions, No to Climate Change, etcetera. Noone else actually does or achieves anything.

The SWP has achieved precisely fuck all apart from create a massive amount of litter and mess in central London, piss a lot of other activists off and enege in racial/sectarian shit-stirring.

All that anyone else can do is sit around moping about the 'lack of democracy' in the SWP, or the willingness of the SWP to work alongside 'dirty Muslims' - basically creating ideological rifts between themselves and us simply in order to justfy their own completely and utterly ineffectual positions within society.

I provided a list of ten "options" - mainly political parties (all bar one which are more successful than respect). There are also other campaigners, NGOs and direct action types, all o0f whokm have gained achieved concrete achievements. The SWP on the other hand has achieved fuck all except noise and mess.

I have my issues with the SWP internal party structure, and I air them. But the merest thought of being a part of any other organisation as it stands is completely and utterly useless and futile - I'd just waste my time.

If you find the "merest thought" useless then maybe that's because you have a completely non-functioning brain? I definitely don't like or support the SWP (or a whole list of other extremist 'revolutonary marxist', far left, far right, sectarian, racist and neo-facist groups) but I - like most rational people - am capabale of the "merest thought of being a part of any other organisation" - it is called using your imagination and brain.

Maybe you should try it sometime, although it might well be incompatible with being part of the SWP/Respect.

 

[liampreston]

The SWP is behind practically everything that is actually happening in this country at the moment. No 2 ID cards, Stop the War, Conference for Fighting Unions, No to Climate Change, etcetera. Noone else actually does or achieves anything.

The SWP has achieved precisely fuck all apart from create a massive amount of litter and mess in central London, piss a lot of other activists off and enege in racial/sectarian shit-stirring.

The SWP may be behind the organisation of those groups, but those groups are certainly not at the forefront of any great revolution within any reasonable time frame I can think of.

 

[TeeJay]

The SWP are behind "No to climate change"?

Give me a fucking break! Yet more of their cynical and shallow band-wagon jumping.

 

[Fruitloop]

Fancy being against climate change! Fucking opportunists

 

[TeeJay]

Fancy being against climate change! Fucking opportunists

Totally ignoring everyone else's collective campaigns about it, waiting until the media and public get panicked and then starting your own seperate campaign and trying to claim you are 'leading the way' on the issue?

Fuck off.

 

[Das Uberdog]

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Your posts are worthless. If other activists choose to get pissed off when mass movements are mobilised and millions of new people, for the first time, are introduced to a radical political movement, then that's their failure. The fact that in themselves these seasoned activists (such as yourself, it would seem) are completely useless morons has nothing to do with the relavence or success of the movements which have been put in place. If you think that 2 million people marching against the war is a failure, if you think that school-kids walking out of school to protest against Condoleezza Rice in Blackburn is a failure, if you think that Preston Respect holding meetings on canal extensions and job losses in local constituencies at which some people had never before attended community meetings is a failure, if you think that having arguably the fastest growing parliamentary political movement in this country is a failure, if you think that mobilising thousands more people to become activists and providing every single fucking campaign around which is actually attracting new activists is a failure, then I want to know what the fucking hell you're doing so bloody right, retard.

The answer is nothing. And the answer to what any other organisation is achieving more than Respect or the SWP is nothing. Precisely, nothing. Anyone with the slightest experience in the current movement can see that, and obviously you're too far detracted from the realities of organising campaigns, meetings and demonstrations or other forms of direct action yourself to really comment.

And what the fucking hell are you talking about, ignoring everyone else collective fucking campaigns!? We fucking ran the whole fucking climate change demo! The Green Party and every single other fucking Green organisation in this coutnry is shit! We've managed to do more for the environment in Preston with two fucking Respect councillors than the fucking Greens have done in Lancaster with fucking 9!

Jeeeeeeezus. I guess this is what I get for online debating, a load of fucking useless twats with too much bitterness on their shoulders to actually get out and support a fucking progressive campaign or movement.

Whine, whine, whine - SWP domination! Whine, whine, whine - I wish I was worthwhile! Whine, whine, whine - I guess I'll make up for my lack of involvement in anything progressive by creating pedantic ideological grievances with the movements which are available and pretending they're more important than the ravages being thrust upon this world by multi-national capitalism and neo-liberalism. Socialism Roxx!!

Actual Quote

 

[treelover]

What delusions of grandeur you have, i really wish some of the old p/p urbanites were here, they would wipe the floor with you, you arrogant fuck. All I would say it that everything the SWP touches turns to shite:, as someone involved in the london ESF i saw it at first hand, the lying, the manipulation, the bullying, the hijacking, the total lack of principles, for fucks sake Coca Cola was on sale, while Columbian T.U's were present, what sort of a left are you?

Ed, is this guy worth your bandwidth?

 

[Wilf]

DA - wonder what your motivation for coming on these boards is? In a very few posts, without getting to know anyone, you seem to be trying to insult, generalise and get under people's skin. Troll? Returning Poster?

 

[laptop]

Most ppl in the swp look at this stuff compared to real political debate as a bit like wanking. ie solitary, fairly pointless, and no substitute for the real thing.

What does 'real political debate' look like?

Well, if it's defined by distinction from wanking... it could be an activity that causes pregnancy. Anal activities really wouldn't be in the interests of building the enormously exciting new alliance with the imams, would they?

In my considerable experience, it's rarely a consensual activity when practised by the SWP

And this is why the SWP bears more blame than any other entity for the parlous state of political activity. As soon as any self-organised activity shows on the media radar, they arrive all ready to destroy it if they can't control it - largely by boring everyone to death.

 

[audiotech]

Your posts are worthless.

Welcome to P&P Das Uberdog - Hobnob?

 

[audiotech]

..i really wish some of the old p/p urbanites were here, they would wipe the floor with you, you arrogant fuck.

Ed, is this guy worth your bandwidth?

I take it you can't fight your own battles then?

 

[Tokyo]

Your posts are worthless. If other activists choose to get pissed off when mass movements are mobilised and millions of new people, for the first time, are introduced to a radical political movement, then that's their failure. The fact that in themselves these seasoned activists (such as yourself, it would seem) are completely useless morons has nothing to do with the relavence or success of the movements which have been put in place. If you think that 2 million people marching against the war is a failure, if you think that school-kids walking out of school to protest against Condoleezza Rice in Blackburn is a failure, if you think that Preston Respect holding meetings on canal extensions and job losses in local constituencies at which some people had never before attended community meetings is a failure, if you think that having arguably the fastest growing parliamentary political movement in this country is a failure, if you think that mobilising thousands more people to become activists and providing every single fucking campaign around which is actually attracting new activists is a failure, then I want to know what the fucking hell you're doing so bloody right, retard.

The answer is nothing. And the answer to what any other organisation is achieving more than Respect or the SWP is nothing. Precisely, nothing. Anyone with the slightest experience in the current movement can see that, and obviously you're too far detracted from the realities of organising campaigns, meetings and demonstrations or other forms of direct action yourself to really comment.

And what the fucking hell are you talking about, ignoring everyone else collective fucking campaigns!? We fucking ran the whole fucking climate change demo! The Green Party and every single other fucking Green organisation in this coutnry is shit! We've managed to do more for the environment in Preston with two fucking Respect councillors than the fucking Greens have done in Lancaster with fucking 9!

Jeeeeeeezus. I guess this is what I get for online debating, a load of fucking useless twats with too much bitterness on their shoulders to actually get out and support a fucking progressive campaign or movement.

Look how active we are! Everyone else is shit! If anyone has any sort of criticisms of us, they must be morons!

Some things to consider:
* Perhaps some other groups were involved in the Stop the War Coalition, at least before they got kinda fed up with the SWP and CPB and the demos declined dramatically?
* In this post, you finally give some examples of what you have achieved, but you generally seem to celebrate activity for activity's sake - an attitude I hear the Workers Revolutionary Party had (before disintegrating). Shouldn't the results of the activity be far more important than the mere fact it happened?
* Mobilising activists? Then how come the SWP hasn't grown?
* Successes in trade union activity are curiously missing from your posts - could this be because you deprioritise this vitally important field?

 

[liampreston]

I live in Preston and can confirm quite clearly that Respect/SWP getting a few quotes on Page 24 of the Lancashire Evening Post is about as far as they've got to "doing more for the environment in Preston with 2 councillors than The Greens in Lancaster with 9".

The Respect people in Preston are nice enough, I enjoy talking with them, but the party is just as much bandwagon jumping as the far left have always been.

 

[TeeJay]

...If you think that 2 million people marching against the war is a failure, if you think that school-kids walking out of school to protest against Condoleezza Rice in Blackburn is a failure, if you think that Preston Respect holding meetings on canal extensions and job losses in local constituencies at which some people had never before attended community meetings is a failure, if you think that having arguably the fastest growing parliamentary political movement in this country is a failure, if you think that mobilising thousands more people to become activists and providing every single fucking campaign around which is actually attracting new activists is a failure, then I want to know what the fucking hell you're doing so bloody right, retard...

Demos and meetings are not worthwhile achivements in their own right - what is achieved as an end result is the bit that matters.

As it happens I have been involved with campaigns (just to mention a few randomly) to increase recycling, increase cycle lanes, bring in road charges, stop new roads being built, to reclassify cannabis, in favour of regional governments and assemblies, in favour of civil partnerships for gays and lesbian people ... the list could go on.

I am not very active right now but in the past I have been involved with the Green party in London, with local campaigns in Lambeth, in drug campaigning, with various actions over roads, have worked in ethical investment research and coporate responsibility campaigns and have contributed time, money and support to a whole range of NGOs.

All of these have achieved concrete things and by this I don't mean 'meetings and demos', I mean actual results.

 

[poster342002]

Demos and meetings are not worthwhile achivements in their own right - what is achieved as an end result is the bit that matters.

It's not the winning that matters, it's the taking part, dammit!

 

[revol68]

You mean the taking part until you cotton on that the SWP is infested with social retards who are completely blinkered to reality and who can perform intellectual gymnastics to an Olympian standard, alas they leave burnt out.

Another soul crushed under the leftist cult.

 

[poster342002]

I was being sarcastic.

 

[revol68]

I was being sarcastic.

i know.

 

[chegrimandi]

Your posts are worthless. If other activists choose to get pissed off when mass movements are mobilised and millions of new people, for the first time, are introduced to a radical political movement, then that's their failure. The fact that in themselves these seasoned activists (such as yourself, it would seem) are completely useless morons has nothing to do with the relavence or success of the movements which have been put in place. If you think that 2 million people marching against the war is a failure, if you think that school-kids walking out of school to protest against Condoleezza Rice in Blackburn is a failure, if you think that Preston Respect holding meetings on canal extensions and job losses in local constituencies at which some people had never before attended community meetings is a failure, if you think that having arguably the fastest growing parliamentary political movement in this country is a failure, if you think that mobilising thousands more people to become activists and providing every single fucking campaign around which is actually attracting new activists is a failure, then I want to know what the fucking hell you're doing so bloody right, retard.

The answer is nothing. And the answer to what any other organisation is achieving more than Respect or the SWP is nothing. Precisely, nothing. Anyone with the slightest experience in the current movement can see that, and obviously you're too far detracted from the realities of organising campaigns, meetings and demonstrations or other forms of direct action yourself to really comment.

And what the fucking hell are you talking about, ignoring everyone else collective fucking campaigns!? We fucking ran the whole fucking climate change demo! The Green Party and every single other fucking Green organisation in this coutnry is shit! We've managed to do more for the environment in Preston with two fucking Respect councillors than the fucking Greens have done in Lancaster with fucking 9!

Jeeeeeeezus. I guess this is what I get for online debating, a load of fucking useless twats with too much bitterness on their shoulders to actually get out and support a fucking progressive campaign or movement.

dasuberdog - I heard that the SWP now had 5 million members and were close to seizing parliament....can you confirm this? Will Gorgeous George lead the way to a new mobilisation of social and politcal revolution the world over. As well as inventing the movement against climate is it true lindsey german once shat in Jeremy Corbyns mouth and invented scatology?

so many questions! I await your responses eagerly.