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Is there anything to quibble with over this outline of Green philosophy?

Bernie Gunther said:
Well, I'd say that's to some extent at least, a false dilemma created by our present political conditions, just like the dilemma about tax on wages vs public services, ignores taxes on profits.

It's very useful for maintaining the status quo, but it assumes that you don't change any of the structural conditions that make the burden of change fall on the average wage earner, rather than on those who profit from the situation.

It's not totally without truth though, because the main reason babies are starving in Africa is that lands used for traditional subsistence farming have been turned over to cash crops, and the impacts of climate change are very likely to cause droughts that will make the situation in such places worse.

So the consumer's desire for out of season fruit and veg and cheap foreign holiday does come into it, but it's by no means the only factor. For example, I've got a link someplace to a report that demonstrates fairly conclusively that most consumers would prefer to buy local organic food if they could a) afford it and b) afford the time to find some and make use of it. The constraints a) and b) are the result of our political and economic status quo, rather than any choice made by the average consumer.


Cant argue with that.You need to get that message to the rowan williams lookalikes.But i think a lot of green supporters join the party because it chimes with there self-denying, austere view of the world and its people.I think they want to harangue and finger point albeit in a lefty way.So the greens are the ideal party for them. And oxbridge buffoons like monbiot don't help the public face of the greens either.
 
Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but my concerns came from looking at the numbers, particularly in relation to food security, and concluding that we simply can't go on as we're going. Self denial doesn't come naturally to me, but I can't see any way to maintain our current consumption without genocidal levels of population reduction. As I don't advocate the latter, and in any case while we continue to organise our society around capitalism, killing off a large chunk of the world's population would only buy some time before we'd hit the limits again, it's hard to avoid concluding that we need to change our ways.
 
Bernie Gunther said:
Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but my concerns came from looking at the numbers, particularly in relation to food security, and concluding that we simply can't go on as we're going. Self denial doesn't come naturally to me, but I can't see any way to maintain our current consumption without genocidal levels of population reduction. As I don't advocate the latter, and in any case while we continue to organise our society around capitalism, killing off a large chunk of the world's population would only buy some time before we'd hit the limits again, it's hard to avoid concluding that we need to change our ways.


Ever thought of suicide?.
 
Maybe I need to work on the "positive vision" thing a bit more though.

I reckon there is one, but I'm a bit puzzled as to how to articulate it simply and convincingly without pages and pages of arguments, facts and figures.
 
Bernie Gunther said:
Maybe I need to work on the "positive vision" thing a bit more though.

I reckon there is one, but I'm a bit puzzled as to how to articulate it simply and convincingly without pages and pages of arguments, facts and figures.

Cant help you there pal,maybe put on a les dawson accent when you say it?.
 
Rob Ray said:
Yeah basically I think that's the crux of it. No-one likes to be told they're a bastard by someone who doesn't even know them - especially as so many Greens seem to be wealthy and, like coldplay not averse to the odd foreign holiday.

Where do you get the impression greens are wealthy? Most I know are on average or below average wages. Otherwise the Green Party would be spending a fortune on its campaigns instead of looking for every penny down the back of the sofa and working on an absolute minimum budget.

Personally, I'm on fairly average wages but perhaps not having a car, and being fairly frugal, means that my money goes further than the average shop-aholic.

It's certainly true that Greens have a much higher level of education (degrees etc) than the population as a whole, but they are also slightly less well-off. (overeducated and underpaid)
 
It's certainly true that Greens have a much higher level of education (degrees etc) than the population as a whole, but they are also slightly less well-off. (overeducated and underpaid)


So what if there have more degrees, all that means is that there good at passing paper exams. Its got no baring on how politically intelligent you are.
And the over educated and underpaid bit, add self-pitying to the list of the greens faults.
 
Ratan said:
So what if there have more degrees, all that means is that there good at passing paper exams. Its got no baring on how politically intelligent you are.

Absolutely right. Many greens are astonishingly politically naive. I'm just adding some context to counter the perception that greens are wealthy. In the main, there is a link in the population between level of education and income. Greens buck this trend.

add self-pitying to the list of the greens faults.
In my case, couldn't be further from the truth. Can't stand people who whinge about themselves. :)
 
I never thought that greens where on mass wealthy . Comfortabley off but not well off.Or maybe its a self-conscious ploy and they've got gold lined toilets stuffed under the bed for when felicity comes over.
 
Depends on what you mean by well-off. I'm on 13k a year, most Greens thus earn a lot more than I do no?
 
Ratan said:
I never thought that greens where on mass wealthy . Comfortabley off but not well off.

Not even comfortably well off. Greens are less well-off than the average person. Despite this, in terms of votes received against money spent in election campaigns, the greens are much more efficient than any of the main parties.

Anyway, to take a step back, you seem to have a bit of a chip on your shoulder about the greens. So what's the story? - What have they done to you? And where does your allegiance lie?
 
Rob Ray said:
Depends on what you mean by well-off. I'm on 13k a year, most Greens thus earn a lot more than I do no?

I wish they did, then we might have a bit more money in the coffers.
 
Japey said:
Not even comfortably well off. Greens are less well-off than the average person. Despite this, in terms of votes received against money spent in election campaigns, the greens are much more efficient than any of the main parties.

Anyway, to take a step back, you seem to have a bit of a chip on your shoulder about the greens. So what's the story? - What have they done to you? And where does your allegiance lie?


No big organic beef about the greens.Just dont think there can cut it when it comes to working class concerns.

And where does your allegiance lie

Mi mum!.
 
You must admit that the greens have a massive image problem rightly or wrongly. A mixture between young fogeys singing gaudete or clannad songs or rowan williams lookalikeys eating rotten lettuce. You need a Shane ritchie or a bradley walsh image to sex yourself up.
 
Alleigance? Anarchist (as on the thread) but that's nothing to do with my views on the greens as a group, those are based on my personal experiences which tend to be of people who are rather more comfortable than the people they are telling to go green.
 
Rob Ray said:
Alleigance? Anarchist (as on the thread) but that's nothing to do with my views on the greens as a group, those are based on my personal experiences which tend to be of people who are rather more comfortable than the people they are telling to go green.
Again though, that's a fairly limited basis for dismissing a political analysis based on sustainability (if that's what you're doing), although it's an improvement on disliking their beards I guess.
 
Bernie Gunther said:
Again though, that's a fairly limited basis for dismissing a political analysis based on sustainability (if that's what you're doing), although it's an improvement on disliking their beards I guess.


If the message of the greens is so final and awe inspiring how comes they only get the odd vote in the arse end of nowhere?. There reputation follows them.
 
Ratan said:
If the message of the greens is so final and awe inspiring how comes they only get the odd vote in the arse end of nowhere?. There reputation follows them.
Well, let's make a distinction first between a green analysis, ie one based on sustainability and a parliamentary Green Party.

The latter is onto a losing game, because to be an effective parliamentary party, they have to avoid sounding too radical and hence being painted as 'extremists' by the mass media. So while I think you'd find almost all of the Green Party members that you'll find on here (I'm not one of them, but I've asked them that question) would say that capitalism and sustainability are fundamentally incompatible, you're unlikely to hear their spokespersons making any such point in party political broadcasts or on Question Time.

The Green Party do pretty well wherever they stand at a local level though, and they do alright, considering the relative size of their funding and base, in any election that has an element of PR in it. In parliamentary elections, like other small parties, they're pretty much stuffed by the 'first past the post' system, but I personally think that's no bad thing, because in national government, I'd be willing to bet any Green Party would go the way of the German Green Party and get coopted.
 
Well the greens seem to do well around near me come the locals.But go kaput when the big elections comes around. Perhaps they like to keep them close to there chests in local elections, but anything bigger may be to risky.
 
I think the Green Party (E&W or Scottish) are making a basic mistake going after parliamentary power.

It makes much more sense to me to focus on building up sustainability locally (which is a big enough challenge in itself) in a way that contributes effectively to the well being of the community, and on revitalising local political life around those objectives, instead of chasing national office.

Any electable national government is always going to have to put the needs of capitalism above achieving sustainability. Right now, the conflict between these interests is not as immediately obvious to the average person in the UK as it might be to the average person in Central Africa say, but it seems pretty inevitable to me that if present trends continue, the choice will become clear.
 
Bernie Gunther said:
I think the Green Party (E&W or Scottish) are making a basic mistake going after parliamentary power.

It makes much more sense to me to focus on building up sustainability locally (which is a big enough challenge in itself) in a way that contributes effectively to the well being of the community, and on revitalising local political life around those objectives, instead of chasing national office.

Any electable national government is always going to have to put the needs of capitalism above achieving sustainability. Right now, the conflict between these interests is not as immediately obvious to the average person in the UK as it might be to the average person in Central Africa say, but it seems pretty inevitable to me that if present trends continue, the choice will become clear.

Sounds worthy enough ,sir you are a modal of intestinal fortitude
 
As to the various criticisms of green perspectives provided so far on this thread, I have to say that I am so far not real impressed with stuff like:

"We don't like your tone of voice"

"We don't like your beards"

"We don't like people with more than one degree"
 
Bernie Gunther said:
As to the various criticisms of green perspectives provided so far on this thread, I have to say that I am so far not real impressed with stuff like:

"We don't like your tone of voice"

"We don't like your beards"

"We don't like people with more than one degree"

Thats all your gonna get!! :D
 
Most of the Green Party members and supporters who post on here are closer to Murray Bookchin and Noam Chomsky type views than Jonathan Porritt or J. Fischer type views. They are not typical, but it is also true, IIRC that various polls of Urbanites (e.g. on the last UK Parliamentary election) show the Greens to be in most cases the favoured party of a majority or certainly a large number of Urbanites too. Now not all Urbanites look like Rowan Williams and knit their own yoghurt do they? :D

Most Greens who post on here would probably also have considerable sympathy with what Bernie has to say about parliamentary co-option - and I second most of what Larry and Japey have said about our attitude to the German phenomenon, and where they went wrong.

The problem is, building a movement for social change - how you do this is an issue for all those not prepared to accept the crumbs from the table approach of new labour and the third way, which has led, -intentionally or otherwise- to craven surrender to, and then actual strengthening of the corporate elite. I see the Green movement and environmentalist ideas as crucial to any "mix" that is going in the right direction, for the reasons sketched out so eloquently by Bernie and others on a frequent basis on here. But also, like Bernie and most other Greens on here, I accept that it is not sufficient - that the social and democracy questions that have been being fought in this country from the time of the Levellers et al in the English Revolution at least, that the question of economic democracy and control raised by socialists and anarchists for the last 120 years at least is still crucial to any long term solution.

We must not forget that the establishment media will present every socialist as Dave Spart or Derek Hatton, every anarchist as a "mindless" rioter or potential bomb chucker, and every Green as a beardy-weirdy moralistic pontificator as a matter of course - that is their function. That is what their owners and controlling financial interests get for their money along with hopefully their profit.

We should not play their game by playing along with the stereotypes. An example would be the climate change bus feature in, IIRC one of the news broadcasts running up to the last Euro election. There were probably lots of decent Greens travelling around on this bus distributing propaganda - as it was during the Esso boycott, leaflets called for a boycott of Esso I believe, to raise the issue and expose the multinational for its relative lack of progress on climate change issues and its collusion with anti-Kyoto lobbyists. The news report focussed almost entirely on the most stereotypical and unsympathetic Green on the bus - no explantion was given of the leaflets, or the Esso Boycott, or of the aims of the campaign. Anyone not in the know would have been presented with a rather disturbing looking woman running across petrol station forecourts yelling. The clear impression that was meant to be given was that this was a Green campaign against motorists in general, and that Greens were unhinged :mad:

The key questions then, are as Bernie says - how we build coalitions and bases (of community activists, socialists, greens, trade unionists, marginalised and victimised groups) at local level to address the environmental, economic and social concerns of ordinary working people - it is, as ever, through face to face contact, through organisation and struggle, that political consciousness is -collectively- raised, that the barriers fostered by the ruling elites and their cynical lackeys are swept away, and that progress is made. :)
 
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