Is there a difference between Labour and Conservative Parties?

[London_Calling]

There is no substantive difference on foreign policy or domestic. The only meaningful difference in the near future is that the Toryies will take the cuts Gordon Brown's Tories wouldn't have the bottle to do - in Defence especially but also elsewhere.

They'll both have to raise taxes and they'll both have to cut spending because that's where we are and the markets won't allow the UK to do any less for several years hence.

 

[butchersapron]

Recent history suggests otherwise. Labour have consistently initiated more vicious cuts than the tories ever dared. What makes you think like that?

 

[tbaldwin]

The truth doesnt seem to be that the LP has moved to the right. The truth is that if you look at the LP in power they have never been that left wing. No Labour govt ever really had the guts to take on the House of Lords before. No Labour govt before ever increased public spending at such a massive rate before.
No Labour govt ever increased spending on third world aid as much before. No Labour govt ever banned foxhunting before.
But you probably know all that as you was a member.
The LP have always been the tax and spend party and that has not changed too much as far as i can see.

 

[butchersapron]

Are you talking to me? Was that a saved up and pasted reply from when you last claimed this is the most left-wing govt in the UK ever?

 

[tbaldwin]

Recent history suggests otherwise. Labour have consistently initiated more vicious cuts than the tories ever dared. What makes you think like that?

More hysteria....Butchers ever heard about the Miners or the Steelworkers who lost their jobs under the Tories......

 

[butchersapron]

Nope, never did sir.

 

[tbaldwin]

Are you talking to me? Was that a saved up and pasted reply from when you last claimed this is the most left-wing govt in the UK ever?

No it wasnt but interesting to go back to that thread cant remember what it was called to look it up?
But i do think its amusing when people go on with this bollocks about how right wing Labour has become to ask them when they think the LP was more left wing in govt....it really is quite funny...

 

[butchersapron]

More hysteria....Butchers ever heard about the Miners or the Steelworkers who lost their jobs under the Tories......

Do you have any counterarguments to this btw:

Labour have consistently initiated more vicious cuts than the tories ever dared.

 

[tbaldwin]

er yeah its rubbish.....Labour have massivelly increased public spending and this has led to loads more doctors,teachers,nurses etc as you well know.

 

[butchersapron]

No it wasnt but interesting to go back to that thread cant remember what it was called to look it up?
But i do think its amusing when people go on with this bollocks about how right wing Labour has become to ask them when they think the LP was more left wing in govt....it really is quite funny...

The tories could and probaly would do all the constitutional guff that the lastest labout govt did - that was meaningless stuff. On the economic plane, the real plane that we all live on this is the most right wing government post-war. More right wing than thatcher. That they could get away with it was undoubtly in large part down to thatcher but there you go. That you applaud those sort of thatcherite approches - and worse as left-wing today tells us all we need to know about your politics.

 

[butchersapron]

er yeah its rubbish.....Labour have massivelly increased public spending and this has led to loads more doctors,teachers,nurses etc as you well know.

Whilst introducing vicious cuts into every nook and cranny of the public services - places the tories chickened out from - and any reminaing nationalised industries. Public spneding on what btw £20 billion for trident? Thank you so much. Any tying the rest of that public spending (i.e the rest of us and our futures) to profit for private companies and their own interests. Thank you so much.

 

[butchersapron]

er yeah its rubbish.....Labour have massivelly increased public spending and this has led to loads more doctors,teachers,nurses etc as you well know.

That's it btw is it? Increased public spending? That's what defines the left adn right? So inter-war fascist Italy and Nazi germany are the two most left-wing govts ever. Could you be any more simplistic?

 

[London_Calling]

Recent history suggests otherwise. Labour have consistently initiated more vicious cuts than the tories ever dared. What makes you think like that?

Economically, 12-15 months from now it might very well look like 1979-80.

 

[butchersapron]

...go on...

 

[poster342002]

Labour have massivelly increased public spending

The main beneficiary of this spending has been on management beaurocracy rather than public service at the point of delivery.

 

[tbaldwin]

The main beneficiary of this spending has been on management beaurocracy rather than public service at the piont of delivery.

I agree loads has been wasted on pointless bureacracy. But its a real cop out just to blame the govt for this. There is a culture of corruption in the management of public services that goes back a lot longer than 1997.
And there has been real benefits of some of the increased spending on some frontline services.

 

[tbaldwin]

That's it btw is it? Increased public spending? That's what defines the left adn right? So inter-war fascist Italy and Nazi germany are the two most left-wing govts ever. Could you be any more simplistic?

Congratulations you have noticed that its not the only difference between right and left politics. But generally speaking it is one of the important differences. The right thinks that people should have more freedom to spend their own money and the left believes that more money needs to be spent for the collective good......National socialism as i believe it was called did not fit in so neatly to left right defintions on public spending....but no butchers to put it simply the nazis were not the most left wing govt ever....

 

[audiotech]

Didn't Blair go on about occupying the 'radical centre' of British politics?

The aim of New Labour was never to be 'left', or even 'right'.

Thatcher was on the 'radical right' - a million miles from Blair's 'third way'.

 

[butchersapron]

Congratulations you have noticed that its not the only difference between right and left politics. But generally speaking it is one of the important differences. The right thinks that people should have more freedom to spend their own money and the left believes that more money needs to be spent for the collective good......National socialism as i believe it was called did not fit in so neatly to left right defintions on public spending....but no butchers to put it simply the nazis were not the most left wing govt ever....

So say what actually does. Do you want to make your argument or not?

 

[butchersapron]

Didn't Blair go on about occupying the 'radical centre' of British politics?

The aim of New Labour was never to be 'left', or even 'right'.

Thatcher was on the 'radical right' - a million miles from Blair's 'third way'.

Nonsense - there is and was actual total continuity between labour and thatcher. Tell us what these massive practical differences between radical right and radical centre entail. Are there any?

 

[Hocus Eye.]

The truth doesnt seem to be that the LP has moved to the right. The truth is that if you look at the LP in power they have never been that left wing. No Labour govt ever really had the guts to take on the House of Lords before. No Labour govt before ever increased public spending at such a massive rate before.
No Labour govt ever increased spending on third world aid as much before. No Labour govt ever banned foxhunting before.
But you probably know all that as you was a member.
The LP have always been the tax and spend party and that has not changed too much as far as i can see.

It doesn't seem to you that Labour has moved to the right. That is your perception or lack of perception to be more accurate. Every Labour government in power has been more left wing than this one, even including the notorious Callaghan government that introduced monetarist policies into this country was more left wing than the current one. The health and education services were still wholly owned by the Public Sector.

The Wilson government also was more left wing than the current one. It introduced Comprehensive Education - something that has been weakened by Thatcher's Grant Maintained Schools which are more or less allowed to continue under the name Foundation Schools.

The post-war Labour Government introduced the Health Service and Social Security as well as nationalising the coal and steel industries. They also began withdrawing from our colonies as well. This was the archetypal Labour government. Even so it moved to the right later as do all Labour governments.

As to the House of Lords, the Wilson Government had made noises about reform of the second chamber but ducked out when in power. The New Labour government did make some reforms of the House of Lords but it was a half-hearted botch. Instead of getting rid of the Peerage and replacing the House with an elected second chamber, they continue with the appointments procedure. In fact they are only able to keep their government team together by creating peers. Lord Mandelson would never get elected to his current role.

I think that the partial and timid reform of the House of Lords and the abolition of fox hunting were both token policies designed to comfort the left to keep them on board. It has been the politics of image not substance since 1997.

 

[Gmart]

Left and Right are a bit vague - I was looking for examples of principles which were different...

For example believing in a smaller government rather than a bigger one.

Or higher spending rather than lower - which has been mentioned.

It seems certainly true that Labour tend to spend more and so are identified with the generalisation 'Left' in that they seem to care more for the poor - but their recent actions on tax rates and their reluctance to do anything about the non-doms seems to show them to be in general agreement with the Conservatives who are the party of the richer part of society and who thus reduce taxes on them and reduce spending overall.

The old division used to be between the Liberals and the Conservatives, typified by the Gladstone quip that:

Liberalism is trust of the people, tempered by prudence; conservatism, distrust of people, tempered by fear.

Still Labour seem not to trust the Labour force at all whilst believing in bigger and bigger government and being unable to address any major issues with any visionary solutions.

The right thinks that people should have more freedom to spend their own money and the left believes that more money needs to be spent for the collective good

Most politicians seem to believe both - thus my question...

 

[butchersapron]

It seems certainly true that Labour tend to spend more

Check this sort of thing out first. You might be suprised.

 

[butchersapron]

Juts how many times are you going to do this thread btw?

 

[audiotech]

Nonsense - there is and was actual total continuity between labour and thatcher. Tell us what these massive practical differences between radical right and radical centre entail. Are there any?

What you on about 'these massive practical differences'? Did I say any of that?

New Labour expressed the desire to break with the Tory era and built a political coalition on that basis.

 

[butchersapron]

What you on about 'these massive practical differences'? Did I say any of that?

New Labour expressed the desire to break with the Tory era and built a political coalition on that basis.

I'm asking you this

Thatcher was on the 'radical right' - a million miles from Blair's 'third way'.

practially. How was Thatcher a million miles away from labour. That's your claim.

And what on earth does this new claim

New Labour expressed the desire to break with the Tory era and built a political coalition on that basis.

mean in practical terms? In what way does this mean they didn't represent continuity with the previous adminstrations economic policies- a deepening even. And why couldn't that take place with the benificiaries of that previous regime? Or more importantly, why did it?

Can people actually say what they mean here please instead of just saying things like the above - "expressed a desire" etc it's just empty waffle.

 

[audiotech]

Thatcherism was open class war.

Where as Blair just got upset and said the unions weren't serious.

 

[audiotech]

And what on earth does this new claim

New Labour expressed the desire to break with the Tory era and built a political coalition on that basis.

mean in practical terms? In what way does this mean they didn't represent continuity with the previous adminstrations economic policies- a deepening even. And why couldn't that take place with the benificiaries of that previous regime? Or more importantly, why did it?

Can people actually say what they mean here please instead of just saying things like the above - "expressed a desire" etc it's just empty waffle.

Whatever.

The practicalties of this desire failed to meet expectations.

 

[butchersapron]

Can people actually say what they mean here please instead of just saying things like the above - "The practicalties of this desire failed to meet expectations.
" etc it's just empty waffle.

Say something.

 

[audiotech]

something