Is the World Cup a "circus" which helps sustain world peace?

[TAE]

Other way round old boy.

Summer olympics every four years, winter olympics every four years.
The gap between the summer olympics and the winter olympics is two years.

FIFA WorldCup only happens once every four years.

 

[Binkie]

I stand corrected - live 'n learn.

 

[Cadmus]

Why four years?

Ancient Olympics
The Olympic Games were held in four year intervals, and later the Greek method of counting the years even referred to these Games, using the term Olympiad for the period between two Games. The Greeks in historical times used the Olympiads to count years, much as we today use AD and BC.

The original Olympic games were held in Olympia after each Olympiad. An Olympiad = 4 years.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympic_Games

 

[nopassaran]

WORLD CUP = a carnival characterised by overt displays of nationalist sentiment.

As far as I'm concerned the basic sentiments that cause someone to support their national football team is what enables wars - I know it sounds a trifle extreme but by perceiving ourselves in terms of an 'us' based around a national identity, requires the creation of a 'them'. Far better if we had no conception of identity based around a sense of nationhood.

 

[Binkie]

WORLD CUP = a carnival characterised by overt displays of nationalist sentiment.

As far as I'm concerned the basic sentiments that cause someone to support their national football team is what enables wars - I know it sounds a trifle extreme but by perceiving ourselves in terms of an 'us' based around a national identity, requires the creation of a 'them'. Far better if we had no conception of identity based around a sense of nationhood.

So true. But that's futurist thinking. You won't get many on here to agree with that.

 

[nopassaran]

So true. But that's futurist thinking. You won't get many on here to agree with that.

Isn't any sort of thinking based around wanting to change things 'futurist'?

But all the same it's still comforting to know there's at least one person out there who feels the same.

 

[TAE]

WORLD CUP = a carnival characterised by overt displays of nationalist sentiment.

As far as I'm concerned the basic sentiments that cause someone to support their national football team is what enables wars - I know it sounds a trifle extreme but by perceiving ourselves in terms of an 'us' based around a national identity, requires the creation of a 'them'. Far better if we had no conception of identity based around a sense of nationhood.

Despite being a long term football supporter, I actually agree with you.

Football is based on rivalry. It is based on 'us' vs 'them'. It would be better if such feelings didn't exist. The thing is, these feelings do exist. They are, sad as it may be, part of who we are. The question is how we deal with these feelings.

It's not a mere case of nationalism. Within London alone there are plenty of football clubs, each with their own culture and heritage. The issue I see is tribalism. As I see it, football (and icehockey or whatever) provides a (mostly) harmless outlet for such basic feelings of togetherness.

 

[nopassaran]

.....It is based on 'us' vs 'them'.The thing is, these feelings do exist. They are, sad as it may be, part of who we are. The question is how we deal with these feelings.

It's not a mere case of nationalism. Within London alone there are plenty of football clubs, each with their own culture and heritage. The issue I see is tribalism. As I see it, football (and icehockey or whatever) provides a (mostly) harmless outlet for such basic feelings of togetherness.

I disagree, we are potentially reflexive and questioning beings that have the ability to learn from our mistakes and modify our behaviour and the rationale for it, accordingly We can construct political identities based around a self critical awareness of our need to 'belong', and how, throughout history, this has resulted in the worst crimes against humanity.

As a species, we are of course light years away from realising this.

 

[TAE]

Each generation needs to learn for themselves. Yes we can look at ourselves critically, but also there is more to our being than simple logic. We do stuff we know we will regret. We are illogical. All I'm saying is that football provides a relatively safe outlet for some of our instincts.

 

[goldenecitrone]

As a species, we are of course light years away from realising this.

Evolution is quite a long, drawn-out process, definitely. Until then I'll be down the pub, cheering on England and enjoying lots of the other games, too.

 

[Barking_Mad]

Seems we never have an excuse in the states to miss work.

Stop worshipping money for a moment and you might find one.

 

[Barking_Mad]

The modern day Olympics as we know them today wouldn't quite be that way without a certain Adolf Hitler. I think im right in saying it was he who was responsible for the promotion of the Olympic rings to the statuswe know them know and also the tradition of carrying the torch from Games to Games.

 

[goldenecitrone]

The modern day Olympics as we know them today wouldn't quite be that way without a certain Adolf Hitler. I think im right in saying it was he who was responsible for the promotion of the Olympic rings to the statuswe know them know and also the tradition of carrying the torch from Games to Games.

Not to mention Leni Reifenstal's innovative camerawork.

 

[Binkie]

The modern day Olympics as we know them today wouldn't quite be that way without a certain Adolf Hitler. I think im right in saying it was he who was responsible for the promotion of the Olympic rings to the statuswe know them know and also the tradition of carrying the torch from Games to Games.

No, that racist mass-murderer wasn't all bad.

 

[squeegee]

I think bread and circuses was meant to pacify the people so they wouldn't revolt, rather than being an altruistic measure from the Romans caring for the welfare of their people.

In this sense the World Cup like all major sporting and entertainment events, serves to keep the people content. A distraction from what's really going on.

But I do still love to watch the world cup, though I can see how it is a good way of burying bad news. And if England win, well you just know who's gonna make the most of it. Blair, first to greet England team when they get home etc.

 

[Jo/Joe]

The World Cup lasts for one month every 4 years. The state of the world is there for anyone who wants to see it.

 

[mears]

Stop worshipping money for a moment and you might find one.

good, quality input as usual.

 

[mears]

Not to mention Leni Reifenstal's innovative camerawork.

One positive of having the 1936 olympics in Berlin was Jesse Owens winning gold medals against the supposed superior aryan race right in the heart of fascist Germany. Hitler could watch personally as his racial views were completely blown out of the water.

 

[nopassaran]

Evolution is quite a long, drawn-out process, definitely. Until then I'll be down the pub, cheering on England and enjoying lots of the other games, too.

Of course if you see yourself as some kind of progressive politico type you'd understand that whilst evolution is a drawn out process it requires a starting point and you'd feel the need to be part of it. Or is it a case of leaving it up to others to place themselves on the margins? You are of course also condoning the criminal amounts of money they're paid - it forever both amuses and horrifies me how progressive politcos can justify their desire to support any national team in international football events. It's fucking nationalism and nationalism sucks.

Yours,
a voice in the wilderness (or so it would appear) - is there no-one out there to hear my screams?

 

[goldenecitrone]

It's fucking nationalism and nationalism sucks.

Who would you have supported in World War 2? Japan?

 

[nopassaran]

Who would you have supported in World War 2? Japan?

Now now now there's no need to get like that...... Anyway you've missed the point completely or are attempting to simplify it in order to avoid the difficulties this issue raises - not sure which...... but I'll humour you all the same - so in response to your question probably Russia cos at least, unlike the other allied forces, people in Russia tended to view WW2 as a war against fascism, as opposed to a war against Germany!

ps. in some respects you've kinda' made my point for me - you see we were talking about supporting national teams and you've immediately responded with the who would you have supported in WW2 argument - are you a Sun reader?

 

[Fruitloop]

Of course if you see yourself as some kind of progressive politico type you'd understand that whilst evolution is a drawn out process it requires a starting point and you'd feel the need to be part of it. Or is it a case of leaving it up to others to place themselves on the margins? You are of course also condoning the criminal amounts of money they're paid - it forever both amuses and horrifies me how progressive politcos can justify their desire to support any national team in international football events. It's fucking nationalism and nationalism sucks.

Yours,
a voice in the wilderness (or so it would appear) - is there no-one out there to hear my screams?

This is spot on, IMO.

 

[ZAMB]

Didn't the USA attempt to inject some national grudge politics into it when they tried to get Iran banned from playing? With this attitude, how can the world cup 'help to sustain world peace' - when countries try to ban teams because they have a political grudge against them?

 

[Fruitloop]

I dunno if world peace is quite the right phrase, to be honest. If the question was 'is the world cup part of a global spectacle that distracts people from their material conditions and more pressing concerns' then the answer's a resounding yes.

 

[Cadmus]

Well yes but then we wouldn't be having an actual discussion, now would we?

bcos that's a tautology.

 

[goldenecitrone]

Now now now there's no need to get like that...... Anyway you've missed the point completely or are attempting to simplify it in order to avoid the difficulties this issue raises - not sure which...... but I'll humour you all the same - so in response to your question probably Russia cos at least, unlike the other allied forces, people in Russia tended to view WW2 as a war against fascism, as opposed to a war against Germany!

ps. in some respects you've kinda' made my point for me - you see we were talking about supporting national teams and you've immediately responded with the who would you have supported in WW2 argument - are you a Sun reader?

So you would have gone to Russia, assuming you don't live their already, to fight in Stalingrad. Fuck me, you're brave. And no, I don't read the sun. There are plenty of tits on U75 thank you very much.

 

[nopassaran]

So you would have gone to Russia, assuming you don't live their already, to fight in Stalingrad. Fuck me, you're brave. And no, I don't read the sun. There are plenty of tits on U75 thank you very much.

You are totally missing the point here once again.....supporting a national team is about a celebration of nationalism whereas fighting the threat of occupation can be about survival - two totally separate things and it's worrying that you seem to be equating them both as one in the same, and in so doing have once again given further credibility to my argument that all forms of nationalism mobilise xenophobic sentiments. You can engage in a conflict or armed struggle out of a sense of justice or to resist repression - it needn't have anything at all to do with nationalism.

....and in answer to your question I'd like to think I would have been a sort of 'dad's army' anti-nazi partisan should the Nazis have invaded - and no I'm a complete coward actually, and in your eyes most likely a tit - but we'll have to agree to differ on the last point

 

[goldenecitrone]

You are totally missing the point here once again.....supporting a national team is about a celebration of nationalism whereas fighting the threat of occupation can be about survival - two totally separate things and it's worrying that you seem to be equating them both as one in the same, and in so doing have once again given further credibility to my argument that all forms of nationalism mobilise xenophobic sentiments. You can engage in a conflict or armed struggle out of a sense of justice or to resist repression - it needn't have anything at all to do with nationalism.

....and in answer to your question I'd like to think I would have been a sort of 'dad's army' anti-nazi partisan should the Nazis have invaded - and no I'm a complete coward actually, and in your eyes most likely a tit - but we'll have to agree to differ on the last point

Sorry, I don't agree. I don't see how supporting England in the World Cup makes me xenophobic. Usually I support Liverpool, but as a place it's not somewhere I particularly love. Same with England, most of it's a dump full of idiots who I wouldn't support in a pea-shooting contest, let alone a war. For some strange reason, I'd like those 22 blokes in white shirts to win the world cup, not for the country, but for me. And no, I don't think you're a tit, as much as you don't actually believe I read the Scum. I hope.

 

[TAE]

They have even banned the wearing of club shirts at the WordCup because it interfers with the exclusive advertiesment deals FIFA have made.

It's true !!

Dutch supporters forced to watch game in pants

For Dutch football fans it has become the summer's cult outfit. Over the past few months, a quarter of a million Holland supporters have bought themselves a pair of patriotic orange lederhosen - wearing them whenever Holland take to the pitch in the World Cup.

But when Holland fans turned up on Friday to watch their team play the Ivory Coast, wearing the garish trousers, officials from Fifa were not amused.

The lederhosen carry the name of a Dutch beer, Bavaria.

The only problem is that the Dutch brewery which makes Bavaria is not an official World Cup sponsor. And so, in one of the most surreal incidents of the World Cup so far, stadium officials in Stuttgart made the supporters take their trousers off - leaving many of them to watch Holland's 2-1 victory in their underpants.

 

[nopassaran]

For some strange reason, I'd like those 22 blokes in white shirts to win the world cup, not for the country, but for me.

But WHY? You see the 'strange reason' you talk about is that ingrained attachment that the vast majority of people have for their country or ethnic group, and whilst I'm pretty sure you wouldn't embark on a spree of ethnic cleansing, it is nevertheless a sentiment, that given the right conditions can cause people to commit such atrocities or at the very least cause the vast majority of people to adopt a deferential attitude to such actions. I think what happened in the former Yugoslavia provides valuable evidence of this ie. catholic and muslim living peaceably together for decades and then literally overnight they start slaughtering each other.

I know you don't read the Sun but like so many people you do need to question that 'strange feeling' you have which basically amounts to a primordial attachment to '(bor)ingland'....I can just hear the tirade now - "well if you hate this country so much don't fucking live here" - to which I would reply - I love this country as much as any other country, cos I love the planet maaaaaan!

This has been a really useful conversation.

yours unpatriotically
NP