Is the urge for certainty rooted in human nature?

[cesare]

but i don't feel the slightest bit certain about it!

anything could be true

OK, fine.

But then why do you keep presenting your uncertain conclusions as certainties ... and not just occasionally but over and over again in many different posts and on many different threads?

 

[i-am-your-idea]

OK, fine.

But then why do you keep presenting your uncertain conclusions as certainties ... and not just occasionally but over and over again in many different posts and on many different threads?

the statements highlight the problem of truth, and are not meant as truths in themselves.

 

[cesare]

the statements highlight the problem of truth, and are not meant as truths in themselves.

I'm cool with applying 'disregard them as truth' when I see them crop up over and over again. That's what I do. But I also ask myself why these 'this is what I present as truth even though I feel I know it's not truth' statements crop up over and over again.

 

[merlin wood]

I'm cool with applying 'disregard them as truth' when I see them crop up over and over again. That's what I do. But I also ask myself why these 'this is what I present as truth even though I feel I know it's not truth' statements crop up over and over again.

It's the max freakout uncertainty principle.

 

[cesare]

It's the max freakout uncertainty principle.

Clearly.

And that's fine, personally got no issues with that at all.

But max's 'uncertainty principle' gets applied as certainly (and so much! drowning out everyone else) that I wonder if he believes in what he's imposing.

 

[gorski]

In my case it is certainly much faster and easier to read a thread when a lot of the posts are max's... plus a few more narcissistic trolls, feeding their vanity...

Since the Ancient Greeks we know that ta antropina [all things human] carry an impossibility of 100% certainty. Many principles are at work, in all things Human, and sometimes many at the same time, unlike in the physical world or mathematics, where it is all much more calculable/predictable, given enough information/knowledge. So, what do we do, how do we act? They would have said that we have a capacity to apply those principles into everyday situation and kinda muddle through but also reflect and hence learn. They call it phronesis.

Modernity - in one of its more aggressive streams - forgets that in all things Human there are many different principles competing and hence there is no such thing as complete predictability, transparency and certainty.

That strand of Modernity, then, tries to impose a certain order on all of Reality, according to various principles/types of thinking. Invariably, these guys are Conservatives.

Bacon, with his power story.

Hobbes, for his painting the Human Nature so black it invokes a Leviathan, not only as a monster to oppress and care everyone into compliance with the Man Made Laws but also as a maggot inside all of us, moving us towards siding with such a state, as the state of nature is so horrible that we have no choice and so the certainty in such a state is much more preferable to uncertainty in the state of nature.

Spinoza, with his impossibility to even wish for anything one shouldn't wish for [freedom as necessity], even attempts an ethics more geometrico.

Some [around the same time] are insisting that gravity in physical sciences or power in politics are those immovable principles from which to search for certainty/certainties. But even there there is a most profound disagreement between the best minds we have/had. Say, Einstein's determinism versus Tesla's thinking or Bohr/Heisenberg's quantum theory. The same nature but two very different types of thinking on the subject.

Another arch Conservative, Heidegger, hopes for such a strong and fundamentally grounding principle in his philosophy, to be sure. [Bourgeoisie certainly became a counter-revolutionary force in such examples!]

{Btw, the old Greeks must have turned in their graves either seriously worried or laughing their heads off...}

The Left, however, at its best [Stalinists do not qualify!!!], is not so scared, frightened, cynical, old and tired and hence prescriptive and arresting. Quite the opposite. Future is left open in such works! In such a thinking there is hope in Humanity - and no need to set absolutes which not only are allegedly "merely observable all around us", and would even apparently oblige everyone everywhere, even at any time, including the future generations.

Das noch-nicht Sein is even made a principle... The principle of Hope in Human Emancipation!

Where is it based? Many different answers but the best I know of are trying to base it in the already happening, the process, institutions, movements etc. all around us, as well as the ones inside us, including the immanent contradictions of Capitalism itself.

 

[Knotted]

people often use 'i am certain' - as way of saying 'i feel certain.'

I think they mean what they say. Being certain often means you have no questions. Feeling certain often means that you had no questions but you are starting to question. Otherwise the two are usually interchangeable.

you can say 'i was certain that my shoes were blue, but now im certain they are green.'

Absolutely! Doesn't that tell you something about certainty?

which you would not be able to say so comfortably if 'i am certain' really meant 'i am certain'

'I am certain' really does mean 'I am certain' unless someone is lying. What else could it mean?

Max and I-am should read this:
http://budni.by.ru/oncertainty.html

I keep meaning to give it a careful reading as well.

 

[max_freakout]

I wonder if he believes

i have answered that question many times


i believe nothing, there is no point believing anything

 

[merlin wood]

i have answered that question many times


i believe nothing, there is no point believing anything

Except that you believe that you believe nothing.

 

[bluestreak]

Time for a pearoast.

Good afternoon and welcome to the next exciting installment of Junior Sophists Challenge, the reality TV show where pubescent Castenada fans attempt to annoy grown ups into suicide. Coming up, our reigning champion, young Max Freakout, will attempt to argue two mutually exclusive points at once and if he can make three challengers bite through their own keyboards in frustration he'll win a weekend at Butlins in Skegness and all the Ayahuasca he can eat in two and a half minutes.

They're multiplying too

 

[max_freakout]

Except that you believe that you believe nothing.

that is impossible

 

[cesare]

The need for certainty writ large across the latest thread.

 

[fractionMan]

i have answered that question many times


i believe nothing, there is no point believing anything

you're an idiot.

 

[bluestreak]

you're an idiot.

Certainty.

 

[i-am-your-idea]

So what you were saying is this:

Originally Posted by i-am-your-idea
what it grows into is entirely mysterious.

So what you were saying is this:

Originally Posted by cesare
It wasn't intended as a strange loop, it was a personal observation. To put it another way, people who regularly present opinions as facts have already reached conclusions that they are certain about.

Originally Posted by i-am-your-idea
whatever you focus your attention on grows into something entirely mysterious.

I'm still no clearer as to what your overall point is tbh.

You believe you discovered a pattern, and focused (however lightly) your attention upon this pattern. The more you looked the more you found, but that doesnt mean anything.

I could observe the opposite. Whatever you focus your attention on grows- in this case your personal observation has grown into something you were compelled to mention and share. But the nature of the observation itself is entirely mysterious.

 

[cesare]

You believe you discovered a pattern, and focused (however lightly) your attention upon this pattern. The more you looked the more you found, but that doesnt mean anything.

I could observe the opposite. Whatever you focus your attention on grows- in this case your personal observation has grown into something you were compelled to mention and share. But the nature of the observation itself is entirely mysterious.

I don't think it's that mysterious to see a pattern in the postings of you and max (by way of example). Those are quite obvious and in the context of the thread. The nature of the observation itself, well, you're the only person that's commented on it (that I can remember). Perhaps you're the only one that thought it was mysterious enough to comment on? Or perhaps not.

'Compelled' - I didn't feel compelled, no more than anyone posting on BBs feels compelled to post. Sometimes I start writing a post, and then when once I've clarified my thoughts, I just delete it before posting it. Sometimes I just read and don't post at all.

It's interesting to consider what attracts your attention to a pattern in the first place. Perhaps that's another symptom of seeking order and certainty, seeing patterns? Would you see a pattern in a snowflake?

 

[i-am-your-idea]

Would you see a pattern in a snowflake?

yes

 

[nosos]

They're multiplying too

My god Max has ruined another thread with his stoned adoloscent ramblings. I can't be fucked any more.

*unsubscribes from forum*

 

[gorski]

But some of us have made an effort, so...

Put him on ignore and basta...

 

[max_freakout]

Put him on ignore

nosos already tried that unsuccessfully


ignore lists are for people with no self-control

 

[Knotted]

This forum's sinking under a tide of hippy shit (and to be fair half the problem is people responding to it). Let max and I-am have it for themselves. More theoretical stuff is going to have to be discussed on the politics forums and the science forum. Let this place lie fallow for a while until there is enough interest to breath life back into it. I'm not going to post here until I see some sign life.

 

[max_freakout]

the problem is self-control

 

[Knotted]

I'm glad, but embarrassed, to say that I've been proved wrong almost immediately.

Violent Panda, Kropotkin, Rogue Lettuce, Crispy and even max when he's behaving himself - you are all stars.

 

[gorski]

Indeed, self-control...

 

[max_freakout]

I'm not going to post here until I see some sign life.

that was quick!!!!!


as i said:


self-control

 

[max_freakout]

Indeed, self-control...

more precisely


lack thereof

 

[Knotted]

that was quick!!!!!


as i said:


self-control

Now you're just being smug. Your drivel happens to be self-consciously paradoxical and so you treat your lifestyle as being affirmed when people point out the contradictions in your arguments. So you come back for more so people point out your absurdities even more and so on and so on. So you do have reason to be smug - if you want to be petty that is. But it is interesting that you need us to affirm your lifestyle so much.

 

[merlin wood]

I'm just waiting for replies from the "My dog's got no gnosis" thread. At the moment it makes more sense than this one.

 

[gorski]

Pathetic, innit...?!?

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