Is the UK political left helping the BNP

[durruti02]

Your opposition to working with those forces who wish to fight fascism is ultra-left and is both dangerous and idiotic.

fuck off idiot .. i am happy to work with almost EVERYONE .. people from the churches, mosques, labour party members etc etc .. BUT NOT those who are the cause of this .. and the crucial issue is that by boxing people into these categories you miss the majority of people

as BA says your '77 ANL throw back brain is not capable of understanding this crucial distinction ..

 

[butchersapron]

No, but the left shouldnt continue as they are.

We must unite around getting the truth about the economy to people through any propaganda means at our disposal.
The fash narrative is false. The anti-capitalist narrative has the truth on why we are in the shit.

"we"?

Which anti-capitalist narrative? You're obsssed about bankers and don't give a shit about real issues, you just want to sell your mesage to people rather than people imposing their message on capital.

 

[durruti02]

The IWCA stood against the BNP in Thurrock and received less votes than the BNP. They haven't stood many councillors since?

at the last elections they stood in all the areas i mentioned and got 20-30% of the votes .. thurrock was a new area for them

 

[audiotech]

In short, people are not going to vote Labour to oppose the BNP, when the reason they vote BNP is because they hate Labour.

The two constituencies are not inclusive.

There are more voters not voting and many others voting for a variety of other parties, than voting for the BNP.

Mobolising the non-voters to vote against the BNP is the only real game in town at present.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

"we"?

Which anti-capitalist narrative? You're obsssed about bankers and don't give a shit about real issues, you just want to sell your mesage to people rather than people imposing their message on capital.

I give a shit about a capitalist caused depression and the shit we all face for many years. Mass unemployment, austerity measures and all the rest. Your patronising attitude gives away something about you, and your mind reading skills aint up to much either.

I would certainly like people to impose a message on capital. At the moment people are pretty much enslaved to capital and bailing out the screw-up that was caused by fraud. "the people" at the moment dont seem to have a message, we are being talked down to and lied to. I think we are still in a sense of shock prior to other aspects of mass truama.

The people should be out on the streets, but for the right reasons with the right message.

 

[brasicritique]

except that a lot of non voters may well have bnp sympathys and may well be non voters as they do not like the political parties your stratrgey requires them to vote for

 

[durruti02]

Mobolising the non-voters to vote against the BNP is the only real game in town at present.

what total rubbish ..

and a total abandonnment of the field to the bnp ..

disgusting ..

this is the liberal left in 2009 .. read it and weep

 

[audiotech]

fuck off idiot .. i am happy to work with almost EVERYONE .. people from the churches, mosques, labour party members etc etc .. BUT NOT those who are the cause of this .. and the crucial issue is that by boxing people into these categories you miss the majority of people

as BA says your '77 ANL throw back brain is not capable of understanding this crucial distinction ..

So, if I've got you right you will work with almost everyone, but not UAF, Searchlight and the Labour party?

It's hard to not understand how that is not an ultra-left position to take on your part, seeing as you have written off working with any organisation involved in anti-fascism?

From what you've already said, I assume Antifa is also on your ignore list too?

 

[brasicritique]

this is the liberal left in 2009 .. read it and weep

This is urban

 

[audiotech]

at the last elections they stood in all the areas i mentioned and got 20-30% of the votes .. thurrock was a new area for them

Ok, could you give me the figures and the dates they stood?

 

[audiotech]

what total rubbish ..

and a total abandonnment of the field to the bnp ..

disgusting ..

this is the liberal left in 2009 .. read it and weep

The Liberals will be actually standing in seats at the next election in the seats where the BNP will be standing. Are the IWCA planning to stand in any?

 

[audiotech]

except that a lot of non voters may well have bnp sympathys and may well be non voters as they do not like the political parties your stratrgey requires them to vote for

Possibly, but I doubt it.

 

[durruti02]

So, if I've got you right you will work with almost everyone, but not UAF, Searchlight and the Labour party?

It's hard to not understand how that is not an ultra-left position to take on your part, seeing as you have written off working with any organisation involved in anti-fascism?

From what you've already said, I assume Antifa is also on your ignore list too?

ok you are doing this thing again where you are deliberately ignoring what people say .. it is frankly pathetic and dishonest .. exactly what we do not need in the current period

i do not work with these so called anti fasc groups ( though i maintain good personal realtionships with some in them).. some of what they do is ok but much of what they do is counter productive

but it is re the Labour Party you are i suspect deliberately misconstruing what i write

are you honestly saying you do not understand the differrence between " .. those who create the conditons for the growth of fascism [ the Nu Lab govt and LAs ] AND those like John McD who oppose them?? " ( as i put it earlier?? )

 

[agricola]

The two constituencies are not inclusive.

There are more voters not voting and many others voting for a variety of other parties, than voting for the BNP.

Mobolising the non-voters to vote against the BNP is the only real game in town at present.

Thats idiotic though - to extend what durruti said, the problems that have caused the rise of the BNP are not going to be dealt with by getting more of the non-voters out. What happens to the "non-voters" after the BNP are defeated?

"Thanks a lot lads, oh by the way we are still doing ID Cards, still in Iraq and Afganistan, still ramping up the terror laws annually, still involved with PFI, still bailing out banks and still caning it in on expenses. See you in four years when we have to stop the BNP again."

People are dissatisfied with all major parties, and especially Labour, for clear reasons. Those reasons have to be addressed before going off on some round the country anti-fash posturing circus.

 

[durruti02]

Ok, could you give me the figures and the dates they stood?

nope .. if you really want to find out you'll will .. they have been put on urban a dozen times ffs ..

 

[audiotech]

nope .. if you really want to find out you'll will .. they have been put on urban a dozen times ffs ..

Where are they now?

 

[cesare]

The two constituencies are not inclusive.

There are more voters not voting and many others voting for a variety of other parties, than voting for the BNP.

Mobolising the non-voters to vote against the BNP is the only real game in town at present.

You can't vote against the BNP, there isn't a tick option for that

 

[frogwoman]

I agree with evreything Agricola has said on this thread.

 

[durruti02]

Where are they now?

not doing great though they and HI in Hackney are still active in all the same areas .. the strategy has been isolated by the lib/labs whenever it has arisen ( in hackney bringing in canvassers from all over not just london but the south east who had a simple lying message that e.g. Labour would get people new council flats ) and hence not achieved the critical mass the work has deserved

it is amazing that those most who profess to be anti bnp reject so out of hand a strategy that has been shown to be so successfull ..

 

[durruti02]

Thats idiotic though - to extend what durruti said, the problems that have caused the rise of the BNP are not going to be dealt with by getting more of the non-voters out. What happens to the "non-voters" after the BNP are defeated?

"Thanks a lot lads, oh by the way we are still doing ID Cards, still in Iraq and Afganistan, still ramping up the terror laws annually, still involved with PFI, still bailing out banks and still caning it in on expenses. See you in four years when we have to stop the BNP again."

People are dissatisfied with all major parties, and especially Labour, for clear reasons. Those reasons have to be addressed before going off on some round the country anti-fash posturing circus.

^^^^^

 

[the button]

Mobilising the non-voters to vote against the BNP is the only real game in town at present.

As common denominators go, that's fairly low, isn't it?

Does it matter who one votes for, as long as it's not the BNP?

 

[frogwoman]

Thats idiotic though - to extend what durruti said, the problems that have caused the rise of the BNP are not going to be dealt with by getting more of the non-voters out. What happens to the "non-voters" after the BNP are defeated?

"Thanks a lot lads, oh by the way we are still doing ID Cards, still in Iraq and Afganistan, still ramping up the terror laws annually, still involved with PFI, still bailing out banks and still caning it in on expenses. See you in four years when we have to stop the BNP again."

People are dissatisfied with all major parties, and especially Labour, for clear reasons. Those reasons have to be addressed before going off on some round the country anti-fash posturing circus.

YES.

 

[frogwoman]

As common denominators go, that's fairly low, isn't it?

Does it matter who one votes for, as long as it's not the BNP?

yes it does, don't you know?

I mean the tories might have been bad, completely fucked up manufacturing, and put millions of people out of work, and labour might have started illegal wars, put some of the most oppressive "anti-terrorist" policies in place for the last 100 years, and pushed for greater fianancial deregulation that has completely fucked up the economy, massivcelyh increased authoritarian tendencies, but at least they're not fash.

Because that would just be awful

 

[cesare]

So, if I've got you right you will work with almost everyone, but not UAF, Searchlight and the Labour party?

It's hard to not understand how that is not an ultra-left position to take on your part, seeing as you have written off working with any organisation involved in anti-fascism?

From what you've already said, I assume Antifa is also on your ignore list too?

It's not an anti-fascist struggle though.

It's a struggle to mitigate the adverse effects of capitalism where it hits hardest - the working class, and under class.

That's where efforts should be concentrated.

Anti - fascism is fine, where it's proportionate. But concentrating on that is like ignoring the elephant in the room.

 

[agricola]

yes it does, don't you know?

I mean the tories might have been bad, completely fucked up manufacturing, and put millions of people out of work, and labour might have started illegal wars, put some of the most oppressive "anti-terrorist" policies in place for the last 100 years, and pushed for greater fianancial deregulation that has completely fucked up the economy, massivcelyh increased authoritarian tendencies, but at least they're not fash.

Because that would just be awful

 

[frogwoman]

It's not an anti-fascist struggle though.

It's a struggle to mitigate the adverse effects of capitalism where it hits hardest - the working class, and under class.

That's where efforts should be concentrated.

Anti - fascism is fine, where it's proportionate. But concentrating on that is like ignoring the elephant in the room.

Yep its like taking a bit of glass out of your foot when someone has a gun pointed at your head.

 

[frogwoman]

Yeah ... but you know I'm right though.

I mean think about it.

If the BNP were in power, we'd be dead. How'd you like that then?

What would you rather want, to have Labour in power, or be dead?

Your choice mate

 

[cesare]

Yep its like taking a bit of glass out of your foot when someone has a gun pointed at your head.

Worse than that ... sit there digging the bit of glass out and asking your mates to help you with the bit of glass by calling in varying other gunmen.

 

[audiotech]

ok you are doing this thing again where you are deliberately ignoring what people say .. it is frankly pathetic and dishonest .. exactly what we do not need in the current period

i do not work with these so called anti fasc groups ( though i maintain good personal realtionships with some in them).. some of what they do is ok but much of what they do is counter productive

but it is re the Labour Party you are i suspect deliberately misconstruing what i write

are you honestly saying you do not understand the differrence between " .. those who create the conditons for the growth of fascism [ the Nu Lab govt and LAs ] AND those like John McD who oppose them?? " ( as i put it earlier?? )

I'm trying to clarify your position.

As far as I'm aware John McDonnell has no opposition to working with anyone in the Labour party against the BNP. You clearly do and you won't work with other anti-fascist organisations either, when I'm sure McDonnell would.

So McDonnell would seem not a very good choice for a supposed 'alliance', which of course only exists in your imagination?

 

[audiotech]

You can't vote against the BNP, there isn't a tick option for that

There's not, but that's what I will be doing come the elections.