Is the Lord of the Rings just a tiny bit bollocks?

[kyser_soze]

I like the book and films, I used to like fantasy generally when I was younger, and still like the odd Thomas Convenant book; I think that hardcore Tolkeinistas are akin to Pratchettistas and twats who took the whole 'Jedi' religion thing even semi-seriously - but then the same can be applied to the idiots who read those fantasy works called Torah, Bible and Koran (none of which are as well written as the Colour of Magic IMV )

So basically, if you like your Orcs and stuff and read the book as a piece of (verbose) fantasy writing without the benefit of the post-modern ironic/critical eye they're decent books. If you think goblins and elves are a pile of shite then you're likely to hate it. TBH, there is far worse fantasy out there and not much that's better IMO, but hey.

BTW, I know loads of kids who love LOTR, Hobbit and the rest of them...

 

[mrs quoad]

"I am Aragorn, son of Arathorn, grandson of Norman, known to some as Strider or Ranger, from the northlands, which some call 'up there'. This is my sword, Glamdring, known to some as Hrun, forged by the dwarves of the Westron, which some call..."

Oh, fuck off, do.

SG

I prefer Gormenghast.

*visibly shudders*

 

[Belushi]

Hey, I'm sure I'm not the only guy who was rooting for Golum as being the most sympathetic and understandable "character".

I went over to the Orcs when I realised they were Working Class Londoners.

 

[kyser_soze]

I went over to the Orcs when I realised they were Working Class Londoners.

How'd you work that one out? They were corrupted elves, so are clearly related to the smug r/c of Middle Earth...

 

[kyser_soze]

Some of the battles were quite well done but the problem I have with the films is the fact that they spawned a whole genre of unwatchable CGI-historical/fantasy-battle-movie toss like Troy and Kingdom of Heaven

Ermmm...Gladiator is the reason Troy and KoH got greenlit (which I would have thought was fairly obvious since they're both sandals and swords themed); LOTR/Potter were responsible for LW&W, Stardust and Golden Compass (indentally, anyone heard owt about it yet?)...

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

Some of the battles were quite well done but the problem I have with the films is the fact that they spawned a whole genre of unwatchable CGI-historical/fantasy-battle-movie toss like Troy and Kingdom of Heaven

True, but one doesn't hate Nirvana because of Silverchair and Stone Temple Pilots, does one?

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

Ermmm...Gladiator is the reason Troy and KoH got greenlit (which I would have thought was fairly obvious since they're both sandals and swords themed); LOTR/Potter were responsible for LW&W, Stardust and Golden Compass (indentally, anyone heard owt about it yet?)...

4 star review by peter bradshaw here

 

[AnnaKarpik]

I read and re-read LOTR for about four years starting at around 10 probably. I wrote stories involving the characters or similar ones, memorised some of the poetry (didn't think much of most of it, even then), tried to learn elvish and probably talked about little else with my similarly obsessed best friend. The best fun was constructing sexual fantasies involving LOTR characters together. In my defence, we were very young

The films were amazing, like seeing my imagination come to life and I rewatch them often.
Me: Anthing on telly?
Daughter: No
Me: We could watch a DVD
Daughter: despairinglyNot LOTR!

While I know that the book is a bit crap, I don't feel that it is because the fantasy world that I created based on it was an important refuge for me.

"I am Aragorn, son of Arathorn, grandson of Norman, known to some as Strider or Ranger, from the northlands, which some call 'up there'. This is my sword, Glamdring, known to some as Hrun, forged by the dwarves of the Westron, which some call..."

Oh, fuck off, do.

SG

Still LOLing

 

[Crispy]

Yeah, I reckon it'll be worth seeing. If only for the armoured polar bear fight

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

The best fun was constructing sexual fantasies involving LOTR characters together.

I read a thing once about the version of LOTR that John Boorman had planned to make in the mid 80s (who made Excalibur). He ripped the book apart in a way that the book purists would have been seething about, including a scene where Galadriel seduces Frodo..

 

[kyser_soze]

4 star review by peter bradshaw here

Yeah, I thought it was good that it was someone who hasn't read the books that reviewed the fillum - still, is Bradshaw any good as a reviewer?

 

[Idaho]

Tolkien is a big target and easy as pie to take a swipe at. LOTR was an amazing acheivement. Creating a genre and a world whilst telling a long yarn.

Anyone who prefers modernist literature isn't going to like it. And anyone who doesn't like fantasy isn't going to like it. And yeah it's overblown - but it's about magic monsters and wizards ffs, you can't do a story like that in an understated first person.

Disliking it is fair enough. Finding it dull is fair enough, but denying it as an important bit of literature or claiming it is cliched is just silly.

The films, however, are pretty crap.

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

He's quite snooty in my experience, and a bit of an iconoclast, tends to be ultra art house filmy one minute and then give 4 stars to the fucking fantastic four film or something the next.

 

[Badgers]

Golden Compass (indentally, anyone heard owt about it yet?)...

Not that I trust the critics in the main but I have yet to read a review that says it is anything more then just 'ok'

I do tend to trust the good people of IMBD more than the Metro newspaper and the reviews so far are pretty positive.

It seems to be pissing off some Christians too so that is a bonus

 

[Idaho]

Hey, I'm sure I'm not the only guy who was rooting for Golum as being the most sympathetic and understandable "character".

Gollum is the hero of LOTR.

 

[maximilian ping]

"I am Aragorn, son of Arathorn, grandson of Norman, known to some as Strider or Ranger, from the northlands, which some call 'up there'. This is my sword, Glamdring, known to some as Hrun, forged by the dwarves of the Westron, which some call..."

that shit is exactly why it's cool

 

[Idaho]

Some people like immersive and escapist literature. They want worlds to walk around in.

Some people like world play and innovation in literature. They like to see the craft of writing at it's best.

Some people like to make an emotional connection in literature. They want charactures and scenarios they can relate to.

Some people like concepts, ideas. They want to read something they wouldn't have though of themselves.

All are legitimate uses and functions of literature.

All of these are valid

 

[bluestreak]

It's a great read.

Tolkien took a few wisps of mythology and created a world, a dozen races, languages, ten thousand years of history. In doing so he created a genre. A genre that is mostly shite, admittedly, but meh.

A superb achievement.

Anyone who doesn't like it is missing the point IMO.

 

[Belushi]

How'd you work that one out? They were corrupted elves, so are clearly related to the smug r/c of Middle Earth...

Two Towers (extended edition) where an orc snarls 'you want some?' at another orc

 

[maximilian ping]

making orcs a bit like cockneys wasn't too much of a leap of the imagination

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

I think Belushi is right. In the book the Orks all talk like cockneys too...

 

[tarannau]

It's a great read.

Tolkien took a few wisps of mythology and created a world, a dozen races, languages, ten thousand years of history. In doing so he created a genre. A genre that is mostly shite, admittedly, but meh.

A superb achievement.

Anyone who doesn't like it is missing the point IMO.

Eh? I hate this presumption and belief from LOTR'ites that Tolein 'invented' the fantasy genre. All the elements and works had been there for generations before Tolkein - in fact he would unashamedly point to texts like the The Mabinogion, Kalevala and the Norse eddas as huge influences, particularly as he was trying to give LOTR that weight and sense of destiny. And you can strognly argue that much of jhis 'invention' has been hived off from elsewhere. As a philiogis, Tolkein's desire to create new languages was more a personal pursuit than a necessary one

What's true is that Tolkein heavily influenced fantasy novels after 1955 and helped established many of the ork/elf/dwarf with beard and ace cliches that fantasy still struggles under to this day.

 

[Idaho]

Eh? I hate this presumption and belief from LOTR'ites that Tolein 'invented' the fantasy genre. All the elements and works had been there for generations before Tolkein - in fact he would unashamedly point to texts like the The Mabinogion, Kalevala and the Norse eddas as huge influences, particularly as he was trying to give LOTR that weight and sense of destiny. And you can strognly argue that much of jhis 'invention' has been hived off from elsewhere. As a philiogis, Tolkein's desire to create new languages was more a personal pursuit than a necessary one

What's true is that Tolkein heavily influenced fantasy novels after 1955 and helped established many of the ork/elf/dwarf with beard and ace cliches that fantasy still struggles under to this day.

You are mistaking mythology and fantasy. What Tolkien did was take mythological concepts and write a novel that looked like a myth. The modern fantasy genre was born from that.

 

[Kaka Tim]

Of course it bollocks!

But its great big escapist entertaining exicting bollocks.

The book has many flaws (e.g most of the foi-de-roi stuff about elves) , but the sheer epic scale, origniality and depth of tolkien's creation transcend them. Also - for the most part - its a pretty good exciting story.

Thought the films were great as well.

Best bits in books and film - Moria and the Balrog, The death of the chief nazgul, Gollum, Sauraman (in the film), Sauraman having his arsed kicked out of the shire (not in the film ), the ents attacking isengard, the Urak Hai.

Becasue there are too many sad hobbit bothereers obsessed with Tolkien and who regually vote it as the book of the centuary, text each other in elvish etc it has prompted a bah humbug backlash (as shown on this thread). But the deniers should really just embrace Tolkiens bollocks and immerse themselves thereof.

 

[Dubversion]

its without doubt THE story for kids to read. its a fairytale classic. its engrossing and its what the kids want

grumpy motherfuckers in their 30/40s can moan all they want about how its a bit nazi/badly written or wotever, but it doesnt have the slightest impact on the fact that little kids will love reading this book until the year dot.

horse shit. I read them when i was a kid and didn't like them. So shove your fatuous generalisations up your crack of doom or whatever the fuck it was called.

 

[Dubversion]

Anyone who doesn't like it is missing the point IMO.

what a ridiculous thing to say. My failure to like it is predicated on my failure to 'get the point'? Did you post that for a bet?

 

[Idaho]

Your failiure to like the books is completely irrelevant.

It is the blanket condemnation and dismissal of them which is so intellectually moribund.

 

[Dubversion]

Your failiure to like the books is completely irrelevant.

well no, it's not irrelevant in the light of bluestreak's post to which i responded.

It is the blanket condemnation and dismissal of them which is so intellectually moribund.

so condemning something you don't like now renders you intellectually moribund? that's even more of a bullshit claim than bluestreaks

 

[N_igma]

No, they are amazing books.

 

[Lock&Light]

i'd say twelve.

it's wank. horrible, overwritten toss. And the films? Jesus - it takes some doing to make huge, epic battles dull but they managed.

Where the hell were you, Dub, when the sophisticated tastes were being handed out?