Is the fear of the BNP gaining power overhyped?

[smokedout]

that's the whole point and why calling peope to vote "anyone but bnp" doesnt work

this is true, the real danger is if the bnp gain ground it could help to racialise politics and give strength to those elements within the tories who have an extreme right wing agenda

the likes of the monday club/freedom ass types could see benefit in a coup if faced with a flimsy cameron government, this would move the moderates from the bnp etc into their spectrum as well as satisfy a significant viewpoint within the tories

imo, its not the bnp gaining ground in w/c areas, i think that to some extent is over-stated, but the bnp's success amongst the middle classes and a move towards more right wing ideals in general amongst moderates is more worrying

 

[frogwoman]

excellent post

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

thats not really true, the far right is just as, if not more, sectarian than the left, there's currently about 14 registered 'nationalist' political parties in the uk

I stand corrected and take that back, I remember the huge split in the BNP just last year. But it doesnt seem to effect their vote. It's for fascist geeks to get into that.

As an electoral force the BNP banner outstrips every other far right party by a long way, far more than any left party does (I'm excluding Greens here). That's probably more what I meant, or at least should have said.

 

[frogwoman]

thats not really true, the far right is just as, if not more, sectarian than the left, there's currently about 14 registered 'nationalist' political parties in the uk

And the bnp are regularly attacked for being sellouts for not "naming the jew" etc

 

[ViolentPanda]

that's the whole point and why calling peope to vote "anyone but bnp" doesnt work

precisely. You target the problem, you don't try and smother it with a blanket.

 

[butchersapron]

excellent post

Depending on what he means by 'coup'...

 

[butchersapron]

I stand corrected and take that back, I remember the huge split in the BNP just last year. But it doesnt seem to effect their vote. It's for fascist geeks to get into that.

No you don't, because it didn't happen. The idea that it did and the BNP are constantly on the verge of collapse is one of the long-standing tactical approaches of mainstream anti-fascim that needs to be junked - for two simple reasons - as) it's simply not true and it's rarely a good idea to associate your pol;itics with deliberate lies and b) we need accurate pictures of where we are today not feelgood nonsense. (And just to make clear, i'm not saying that you're putting this idea about but that you/others picked up on the repeated claims by searchlight/LUAF etc that it's the case)

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

No you don't, because it didn't happen. The idea that it did and the BNP are constantly on the verge of collapse is one of the long-standing tactical approaches of mainstream anti-fascim that needs to be junked - for two simple reasons - as) it's simply not true and it's rarely a good idea to associate your pol;itics with deliberate lies and b) we need accurate pictures of where we are today not feelgood nonsense. (And just to make clear, i'm not saying that you're putting this idea about but that you/others picked up on the repeated claims by searchlight/LUAF etc that it's the case)

If you can be arsed, I'd really appreciate a very brief breakdown of the story and how it came to be Chinese whispered into what you think I heard.
I just remember a strong challenge to Cyclops Fuhrers leadership and quite a lot of people leaving. Is that not so?

Upthread I said the left were less united than the far right, now I am wobbling. What do you think?

 

[butchersapron]

My view is that Searchlight etc tried to split the party in the run up to the 2008 may elections - they were discovered before they could put the plan into action, and before any real split could be solidified. There was a three-day rebellion from some middle managment that dissipated one it beame clear that Griffin actually had enough support in the party to turn the challenge to his advantage. A leadership challenge was set running but the campaign couldn't even get the required signatures to stand. The leaked list was a last desperate attempt to make something out of the fuck up. This si the huge split that serachlight and others wer ebigging up as respresenting the dying days of the party.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

My view is that Searchlight etc tried to split the party in the run up to the 2008 may elections - they were discovered before they could put the plan into action, and before any real split could be solidified. There was a three-day rebellion from some middle managment that dissipated one it beame clear that Griffin actually had enough support in the party to turn the challenge to his advantage. A leadership challenge was set running but the campaign couldn't even get the required signatures to stand. The leaked list was a last desperate attempt to make something out of the fuck up. This si the huge split that serachlight and others wer ebigging up as respresenting the dying days of the party.

Many thanks for that. I never beleived it was the "dying days of the party" but thought it quite significant. If I was taken in, fair enough and thanks again for clarifying.

So, do you think the far right is basically more united than the left? They already have more airing for their cause in the media - do they also have a more cohesive message to present?

 

[butchersapron]

There's one big party that most sensible far-righters now know is the only game in town, and importantly, that for them to get involved they're going to have to toneany more morwe hardcore views they may have. The rest of the right uprepared to do that are thefore outside and at war with the BNP as sell outs. These people are tiny and meningless though and have no support beyond themselves.

I don't think that at this level of politics it's whether the BNP present a more cohesive mesage than other far right groupings, but how prepared and how far they are able to put in the local on-the-ground-work, how closely they stick to their strategy that's key (obviously being relatively coherent and unified is preferable though). They've not really got serious competitors that they need to differentiate themselves from. It's the issues which are coherent - that's the important thing - not the messages coming from various parties.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Good answer Butchers, and it seems your answer to my question is "yes".

There's one big party that most sensible far-righters now know is the only game in town

That certainly aint so for the left. It's pretty depressing because electoral politics has a lot to do with branding. The BNP are starting to gather a momentum as a shameless far right brand. What is amazing is that many who are drawn to them may be sick of "spin and lies" of other parties. It is probably the biggest spin in politics when the BNP act like they are not really for an all white Britain and an almost 1930s model of fascism. griffen is basically a holacaust deniar as well but skirts round the subject.

 

[Dissident Junk]

It depends what kind of power you are talking about.

If you are talking about winning a general election, then I can't see this happening without a shift in the political paradigm, but with a shift, it could occur -- and the opportunity could be there over the next ten to fifteen years.

The danger would be that the BNP slowly increases its 'cultural power', as it has been doing over the last ten years, and the party begins to look viable as parts of the electorate begin to sympathise with some of its aims and policies. This growing viability then makes the party look like a possible channel into government for certain types of middle-class 'respectable' types, and they then join -- this has already started to happen in my view (BNP ballerina et al).

This then further 'normalises' what are essentially very radical policies and viewpoints, BUT the party also mutates at the same time -- you could call this the "Blairification process", where the old edges are filed down or appear to disappear all together.

What you then end up with is a weird hybrid that is highly 'electable', and would possibly then be elected to parliament and win a GE, but also has some old ideological baggage under the bonnet that ends up being played out as policy, but in a way you do not even notice.

You end up with a Janus-faced government.

This is the path that I feel the BNP could go, which makes me state I don't think the idea of gaining power is overhyped -- they already have far, far more sympathetic and cultural power than they had fifteen years ago.

To my mind, a rather good idea that I read elsewhere this morning would be for the two main parties to split into four, and stop shoehorning such a wide spectrum of opinions into 'Tory' and 'Labour'. This could go someway to retaining disaffected working persons' Labour votes within the traditional paradigm, as a distinct voice apart from the elitist liberal Labour block, who can afford to be more ideological.

Same would go for the Tories. You'd stop the "Tories are going soft with a Blairite Cameron" mantra if they had somewhere to go that was "parochial Conservative" -- Ukip did this to some extent, but they still suffered from new party syndrome.

Any new political party has to build up years of awareness and viability, tried and tested methods of decision-making etc, a way to hang together without silly tenuous splits.

And I don't think there is time for a new party to do this and thus soak up disaffection.

Mibbe.

 

[trevhagl]

I know it's not what the OP was getting at - but having the BNP responsible for local authority services and distributing council funds won't be pretty for anyone unlucky enough to live there.

You can imagine also draconian use of by-laws to stop left demos, paper sales, etc,

It may actually be worth it to see what the locals do when social services are axed, the disabled left to rot, Citizen Advice Bureaus closed down, all the things that benefit ordinary people abolished ....they maybe then will realise that racism comes with a price

 

[frogwoman]

It is probably the biggest spin in politics when the BNP act like they are not really for an all white Britain and an almost 1930s model of fascism.

They're not though

They barely mention Jews/the holocaust in their literature apart form as a cover with vague stuff about "bankers" which allows them to portray themselves as differnet to established capitalism
Its Muslims/immigrants not jews or anyone else - thats the message theyre pushing and conveniently one wihch is not opposed to any significiant extent by the mainstream parties (surprise surprise)

It doesn't make them any less far-right or any less dangerous


fascism doesn't mean swastikas, 1930s nuremberg rallys, etc ... it never meant that to begin with ...

 

[smokedout]

fascism doesn't mean swastikas, 1930s nuremberg rallys, etc ... it never meant that to begin with ...

nazism is sooo over - if a mass fascist movement was to emerge it would probably look like nothing that has come before and come from a direction no-one expected (the greens )