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Is the "Brights Movement" a Cult?

..atheism isn't any different, and also requires faith in it's own right: in the self.
No it doesn't. If there were no theists, the concept of atheism wouldn't even exist. Atheism is not a faith, and therein lies the difference.

I dislike the idea of Brights primarily for reasons of taste. In any case, there already exists a term for those who wish to feel superior to religious folk - freethinker. Much less objectionable yet equally as offensive to believers.:)
 
Looks like atheism that's had a branding job done on it. And shit branding at that. All that flowery language.... and "I'm a Bright"... oh ffs. Rational thinking doesn't need a "movement" behind it, surely?

As for it being a cult... it's not as far as I can see.
 
Rational thinking doesn't need a "movement" behind it, surely?

Basically my point.

No it doesn't. If there were no theists, the concept of atheism wouldn't even exist. Atheism is not a faith, and therein lies the difference.

Everyone has faith in something lbj. I have faith in me. Some people put their faith in a deity, but everyone has faith in something or other.
 
What do we mean by "God" [Theos]? What, then, is atheism? Neither, by definition, can be proven without any residue/absolutely!!!

[However, depending on the definition of "God", one might quibble with that one, of course - but we shall come to it later...]

It's a very old thing in Philosophy: theism and atheism are the face and the flip side of the coin - two sides of the same thing. Both unprovable!

What we can say and do, says Vico [many, many Moons ago!!!], and then many follow, is what our world is like, what we have done, what we are doing and what we are going to do with/in our world and leave these "otherworldly questions" to the private sphere and the theologians.

I.e. let's not allow ourselves - in the public sphere, in essential questions - to be drawn into the theological questions and discourse as such, as it's taking us away from the really essential questions of how we live our lives and what we are doing with our world.

And for that we need neither! So, let's deal with the really important stuff instead. One of them is the movement - here "Brights" movement - equally as we would with the mass suicidal movement of a properly religious cult... In other words, Phil's Q is legitimate!!!

However, I have to reiterate that the idea/notion of "God" in, say, Hegel's thought, isn't the same idea of "God" as, for instance, a poor, uneducated, powerless person from the bottom of the social scale in, say, Brazil or Ghana, India or Russia, might "imagine/picture" it!

Equally, as someone mentioned, the definition of a cult is at issue here, too.

But! What might be rationally debated here, to my mind, is whether or not Theism of any school is being replaced by an equally dumb, non-critical, comformist attitude towards "belief" which tends to replace the "old Theist belief" with Science, uncritically elevated to the heights normally reserved for the Absolute.

I find, as many here know, the "naturalistic worldview" extremely wanting in its superficial "ideas" about materialism/idealism, Philosophy as such, in particular Methodology and so forth, inasmuch as it coincides with vulgar "materialism" and "Social Darwinism".

None are exactly very intelligent or very educated!!! So, "Brights" seems like a farce, more like, as opposed to how they seem to be "understanding", i.e. trying to "label" themselves.

What rubbish PR that is, FFS...:rolleyes: It really kills it, to my mind!:p Brights...:rolleyes: Phhhhhrrrrrrrrr...........:D
 
But! What might be rationally debated here, to my mind, is whether or not Theism of any school is being replaced by an equally dumb, non-critical, comformist attitude towards "belief" which tends to replace the "old Theist belief" with Science, uncritically elevated to the heights normally reserved for the Absolute.

I find, as many here know, the "naturalistic worldview" extremely wanting in its superficial "ideas" about materialism/idealism, Philosophy as such, in particular Methodology and so forth, inasmuch as it coincides with vulgar "materialism" and "Social Darwinism".

Much as we find the mystical claptrap of Hegel wanting...
 
I can't believe anyone has the energy, or the fuck-to-give, to go through all that crap again :)
 
Much as we find the mystical claptrap of Hegel wanting...

You mean you don't understand it?:p It would do you a greater honour to simply say "I don't get it" then pass judgement of the type on something you are not acquainted with.:rolleyes: That's a piss poor attitude!:(
 
and here we see dwyer's agenda, a chance to start up this crap again

Maybe if you actually really communicated about it - as in properly, not superficially...?:rolleyes:

As in define what we mean by "God" and NOT PRESUME WE KNOW WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT!!!

As there is a great dispute, at least throughout our recent History, at the top of the Human Endeavour, regarding what exactly the idea of God is - what gives you the right to feel this arrogant about the idea itself?
 
i couldn't be arsed the first time. :)

Exactly my point!

Sooo, errmmm... WTF are you doing in this thread, then?

I'll tell you: you ARE being arsed!! But your attitude and your spiritual laziness stink like Hell and it's people like you who drag this to the lowest common denominator!

I challenge you to give us anything meaningful on the topics!!! Hic Rhodus, hic salta!!!
 
Exactly my point!

Sooo, errmmm... WTF are you doing in this thread, then?

I'll tell you: you ARE being arsed!! But your attitude and your spiritual laziness stink like Hell and it's people like you who drag this to the lowest common denominator!

I challenge you to give us anything meaningful on the topics!!! Hic Rhodus, hic salta!!!

For someone who values knowledge, you're making quite a lot of presumptions about these comments, most of which are based on previous debates had a long time before you got here G...

BTW, I have been reading Hegel (Philosophy of Right & Stephen Houlgate's 'Introduction') and still think it's in the 'nugget of truth buried in a sea of bullshit', and basically represents everything I hate about philosophy and philosophers, it's cleverness for clevers sake. There is no wisdom in there for me.
 
For someone who values knowledge, you're making quite a lot of presumptions about these comments, most of which are based on previous debates had a long time before you got here G...

BTW, I have been reading Hegel (Philosophy of Right & Stephen Houlgate's 'Introduction') and still think it's in the 'nugget of truth buried in a sea of bullshit', and basically represents everything I hate about philosophy and philosophers, it's cleverness for clevers sake. There is no wisdom in there for me.

No, I do not. I am writing about what he writes in THIS thread.:rolleyes:

It's your loss...:(

Btw, in that case you have a chip on your shoulder or an axe to grind or... whatever. In any case, you are not exactly "not having a Philosophy" yourself, you know - so, you can't say anything nasty to Hegel or anyone. It's just that it's the worst kind of "Philosophy"! One which says "I can't be arsed!" So, stay out of it, then... :( Don't come crying here yelling "I can't understand it", and "I can't be arsed" - it's so unbecoming.

One more thing, it's what I hate about this country in particular - so much of it around. This anti-intellectual disgust, not seeing how self-belittling it is... :( Pity you bought it wholesale... :(

[And before any clever Dick asks: I am leaving, given half a fighting chance...!!!]
 
BTW, I have been reading Hegel (Philosophy of Right & Stephen Houlgate's 'Introduction')...

Of course, it does not mean you understand it and hence you can't value it.

Obviously, you came into it with prejudices!

Moreover, I think you are NOT a properly trained Philosopher. Hence, chances are that, para-shooting into it like this, you will have serious difficulties understanding what relates to what in such a complex text and what's New and really valuable about it.

No offence but ANYONE would have problems with it, even Philosophers, if they haven't had a proper intro into it - and I don't mean 1 sodding Introduction, no matter how good - it's still but a few pages, as opposed to years of studying Philosophy, with an open mind, in a country that has an open mind and even "an open heart" towards it, which, let's face it, Anglo-Saxon worlds in general lacks!!!:(

So, no offence - but on the topics [I repeat ON THIS TOPICS!!!], when your attitude is as it is - I simply can't take you seriously... :(
 
One more thing, it's what I hate about this country in particular - so much of it around. This anti-intellectual disgust, not seeing how self-belittling it is... Pity you bought it wholesale...

And this is what annoys me about your whole approach - any criticism of sophistry in philosophy is instantly taken as being symptomatic of 'anti-intellectualism'. What I am critical of is sciences OR philosophy that makes sophistication a virtue in itself, and is more meat for the grinder of dicsussion between philosophers than it is for non-specialists. It's nothing to do with being anti-intellectual, and everything to do with being anti-elitist when something as socially important as philosophy becomes a jealously guarded commodity - you, phil and nosher all display a disdain for non-technicians that borders on arrogance, and rather than bringing clarity to the discussion, you either dismiss or say 'Go do it yourself', and then when someone does do it themselves, and still disagrees with you, you do what you've done here and accuse them of anti-intellectualism.

I don't like elites, I don't like heroes. You set yourself up as part of the former, and quite clearly hold some people as the latter.

Moreover, I think you are NOT a properly trained Philosopher

No, I'm not. I have no idea what gave you the idea that I was...
 
And this is what annoys me about your whole approach - any criticism of sophistry in philosophy is instantly taken as being symptomatic of 'anti-intellectualism'.

And you have the absolute measure of it? You are going to be the judge and the jury, not to mention the executioner? And with this attitude? :(

So long as we're open-minded, eh Kyzer? :rolleyes: :D

What I am critical of is sciences OR philosophy that makes sophistication a virtue in itself, and is more meat for the grinder of dicsussion between philosophers than it is for non-specialists.

Hold on, you have invented something else, haven't you? Well, you must spill the beans, as it were... :D

Seriously, though: it's not that oppositional - it's what kind of Philosophy [yours is poor, btw!] or what kind of Science [see Pugwash, for a good example!!]!!!

It's nothing to do with being anti-intellectual, and everything to do with being anti-elitist when something as socially important as philosophy becomes a jealously guarded commodity - you, phil and nosher all display a disdain for non-technicians that borders on arrogance, and rather than bringing clarity to the discussion, you either dismiss or say 'Go do it yourself', and then when someone does do it themselves, and still disagrees with you, you do what you've done here and accuse them of anti-intellectualism.

That's just not true, after everything we've done on this forum!!! That's bordering on - oh, well, I better stop somewhere...

You yourself have thanked me here and there for explaining certain things etc.

But if you want the whole thing - it's not possible! I can give principles, elements, directions etc. but not more! Just as I can't breath for you - you must study it for yourself and carefully! It's the process that ennobles and extends your capacities.

Else we can all go and buy "Reader's Digest", FFS!!:rolleyes:

I don't like elites, I don't like heroes. You set yourself up as part of the former, and quite clearly hold some people as the latter.

You are jumping to conclusions here: I hate "the elites", too!

But "elite" doesn't mean that all the "elites" are the same! some are PRO domination and exploitation and some are CONTRA. I am in the latter ones!!!

What's the difference? Knowledge for the former ones is the tool to exclude, whereas for the latter ones - it INCLUDES, as it is open for all!

But there is no substitute for hard work! Authority of knowledge comes AFTER you have worked hard, i.e. it is mediated, there is no immediacy in this. Even though you have all the rights as a Human Being you do not have the professional respect in ANY area!!! [Shame I have to explain this...] It only comes AFTER you have worked hard!! No way out of that one!!

In short: you must start distinguishing between irrational and rational authorities! I.e. those based on social divisions of class, money, power, political economic etc. influence and those that are based in their abilities and hard work, rather than social background, amount of money etc. And you must remember that you will get your "authority" as you keep working on something. So, let's face it - in Philosophy - you're NOT!!!

No mystifications, m8! Simple and yet difficult! Voila!
 
You don't really help yourself do you gorski?

You should put your thinking cap, if you ever had one, m8! I am not a proselytiser and I am not into converting anyone into anything!

If one is ready and interested one will try. If not - I am not here to be all things to all people! Not a politician! Not a priest!:rolleyes:
 
But "elite" doesn't mean that all the "elites" are the same! some are PRO domination and exploitation and some are CONTRA. I am in the latter ones!!!

Ah, but you are an elite gorski. You might be contra domination and exploitation, but you are very much pro-philosopers - I don't disagree that rational respect comes from hard work etc, and I have a lot of respect for you as a person. You're clearly intelligent and exceptionally well trained, but that doesn't alter your disdainful attitude to those who disagree with you verging on arrogance. No one will come to the mountain the way you describe when presented with someone telling them that when they have X knowledge *they will understand*.
 
Was Socrates a properly trained Philosopher?

As Tristan Tzara never said, philosophy is for everyone.

This being my point - and cause of my annoyance when it becomes a tool for academics to score points off each other, and sorry, but that's what I see in Hegel.

The irony is that I think his basic idea of fusing philosophy and material science, ending dualism, is a great idea...OTOH I also think that it's potentially hampered by a material reason, in that the physical workings of our brains won't allow us to reconcile the two...
 
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