But at the expense of creating a more genetically homogenous population that's more vulnerable to pathogens.
Is Psycho-analysis dead?
- Thread starter phildwyer
- Start date
But at the expense of creating a more genetically homogenous population that's more vulnerable to pathogens.
Beg to differ - totally crap article - typical of the weirdly defensive position psychoanalysis in the UK has adopted in response to the government putting more money into talking therapies. Good critique of the article (which discusses some parts of Freudian theory are still useful) at http://www.mindhacks.com/blog/2008/09/a_quick_fix_for_the_.html
About whether there is psychoanalysis done in the NHS - people have already cited a range of specialist services that offer it. It's also offered at the 'primary care' (services available through GP) level. Some ~10% of psychological therapy services at primary care level offer psychoanalytic therapy, ~55% offer psychodynamic therapy, and ~75% offer CBT. (research report http://www.cpc-online.co.uk/documents/PL438ARTEMISREPORTweb.pdf - watch out, large pdf)
Blagsta
Minimum cage, maximum cage
Hmmmm, that article appears to weirdly defensive too! The main criticism of evidence based trials and mental health is not a fear of science as that article is suggesting, but rather a criticism of the difficulties of trying to shoehorn something that is neccesarily deals with subjectivity into an objective framework. RCT's in mental health are notoriously fraught with problems, not least because of the problems with diagnostic categories and co-morbidity of symptoms.
gorski
customised free radical
No, I am not. I was simply being equally nasty to someone who has been and keeps being nasty to me.
But in your case you should know better, i.e. the difference: because I was more than cool with you when you kept teaching me in IT. Was I arrogant? Nope, quite the opposite is the case!!! Very thankful and appreciative of your good will and knowledge/expertise!!! No words sparred!!!
However, when you came to my neck of the woods no such appreciation followed. And at some point I did lose my patience with your rigidity, stubbornness, intransigence, prejudices, arrogance and ignorance!!!
Where does presuming you know it all and don't have to take into consideration what pros in areas other than yours come from?
There I got really pissed off with your attitude and as no reciprocity was forthcoming I felt equally unobliging, thanx a bunch.
And I can prove it, as you well know!!! This is exactly how it happened!!!
Which means you sir have a chip on your shoulder - of the "know it all" type!!!
So, you know what to do with this bullshit of yours!!!
I am no c**t! But you are carrying a heavy chip on your shoulders!!!!
Prejudices like yours in the case of Psychoanalysis, are rather unbecoming - especially if you haven't studied it properly - but in the case of an allegedly open-minded scientific types, who allegedly endeavour to devolve values from "facts" and so forth... oh, well... sometimes I despair...
gorski
customised free radical
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
I have to say I find myself with G and Blag on this one - while 'crude' Freudianism is obviously long gone, the process is still good, IMO. It worked on me anyway - emotionally very hard to cope with in places but useful...
Jonti
what the dormouse said
So we have to let talking cures off providing evidence that they work because it's hard to provide that evidence, do we? Kind of lets all mind-control rackets off the hook, doesn't it?
It's self-serving rubbish. It's not that hard to tell if a treatment has alleviated psychological symptoms. There's nothing about talking cures that makes this uniquely difficult compared to psychoactive medicines, for example.
gorski
customised free radical
You really don't have a clue. Which is what makes you just prejudiced.
It DOES work but there are no guarantees. Sometimes it's more difficult to get a patient to "meet him/herself" and allow themselves to be cured, as it were. The idea that self-realisation/knowledge will set you free is not new but the way it works in PA is well proven now - just not to the heavily prejudiced, of course...
Criticisms - real criticisms, coming after a lot of work/studying the subject matter, unlike yours!!! - have come from the left: it takes a lot of money, a lot of work, so not really for the plebs - only those who can afford the proper, in-depth analysis, that can last a long time etc.
But hey... why not just spit on something you have no clue about... Tells a story...
It DOES work but there are no guarantees. Sometimes it's more difficult to get a patient to "meet him/herself" and allow themselves to be cured, as it were. The idea that self-realisation/knowledge will set you free is not new but the way it works in PA is well proven now - just not to the heavily prejudiced, of course...
Criticisms - real criticisms, coming after a lot of work/studying the subject matter, unlike yours!!! - have come from the left: it takes a lot of money, a lot of work, so not really for the plebs - only those who can afford the proper, in-depth analysis, that can last a long time etc.
But hey... why not just spit on something you have no clue about... Tells a story...
Blagsta
Minimum cage, maximum cage
Oh look, a straw man from Jonti! How unusual!
Blagsta
Minimum cage, maximum cage
That is not the complaint. Another straw man.
Jonti
what the dormouse said
Well, it wasn't, as I've just explained.
But you say I make a habit of using straw men (even though I have not, not in this case). I think that's a deliberate lie and slur.
But i like to be fair, so do you have any other examples Blagsta? 'Cos it's looking like you have no evidence for your psychoanalytical fanboisism and are resorting to cheap slurs.
Mind you, that is by no means unusual for you. Perhaps you should ask for a refund?
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
^^^This.
When I was going thru therapy, one of the things we discussed at the outset was the clarification of goals and me being sure and certain that I actually wanted to find stuff out about myself, but also that it would ultimately be down to me as to how successful the therapy was - the thing about 'allowing' oneself to be cured is important, because for most people their neuroses etc are part of them - you're re-writing yourself to an extent, which is pretty scary stuff...
Blagsta
Minimum cage, maximum cage
I rest my case.
Jonti
what the dormouse said
Pfft. How very convenient for the therapist!
All they have to do is make clients spend so much money they're embarrassed to admit even to themselves it didn't work too well. Or perhaps just have the client like them a lot, and want them to feel good.
No, this just won't wash. You may as well ask if Scientology "works for you". The problem is to be objective about the subjective -- it is real after all -- not to wash our hands of trying to make any sense of the relationship.
If other psychological treatments can show they work, we can accept no less from psychoanalysis.
Blagsta
Minimum cage, maximum cage
Instead of frothing at the mouth about it, why not try and find out what the issues are? There is controversy about RCT in mental health as anyone with any knowledge of the field will tell you. Why not find out what they are, then come back and argue armed with some knowledge?
Blagsta
Minimum cage, maximum cage
Aye, there's the rub!
Jonti
what the dormouse said
You haven't made a case.
Really, you haven't. You've sneered and made jibes as is your wont. But you haven't dealt with the evidence. Other psychtherapies are able to show they work, and psychoanalysis can't.
Blagsta
Minimum cage, maximum cage
A quick Google brings up an article about controversies with evidence based practice. I haven't read the article fully, merely post this as an example to show that these controversies exist
http://content.healthaffairs.org/cg...ey=WxMBn2BV1BQYo&keytype=ref&siteid=healthaff
http://content.healthaffairs.org/cg...ey=WxMBn2BV1BQYo&keytype=ref&siteid=healthaff
FFS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Blagsta
Minimum cage, maximum cage
Aye, there's the rub!
Are you aware of differing models of mental health Jonti? What are your thoughts on say, medical Vs psycho-social?
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
But in my case PA worked, so AFAIC it's a good thing.
Jonti
what the dormouse said
This is an interesting variation of the Blagsta sneer.
Don't respond to the arguments presented by other people, but make out they are ignorant and suggest they go and Learn Something. It's a trick that Gorski uses a fair bit, but it doesn't work too well anymore.
Up your game guys, this is weak stuff.
Jonti
what the dormouse said
You do know your anecdotes do not count as data, right?
There's all sorts of reasons things might have worked for you, apart from the veracity of freudian theory.
Jonti
what the dormouse said
LOL @ even more diversionary, accusatory wriggling.
Please explain what that has to do with the refusal of the Freudians to provide or accept evidence about the efficacy of their methods.
Blagsta
Minimum cage, maximum cage
You present yourself as knowledgable on mental health treatments, yet you know nothing about the difficulties with evidence based practice?
I see.
Blagsta
Minimum cage, maximum cage
I'll take it that you know nothing about disagreements between models of mental health then.
btw, a lot of pyschoanalytic therapy in the NHS is Kleinian, not Freudian
Similar threads
