Is Mugabe going to nick the election?

[Kid_Eternity]

Would it? I'm not so sure if it gets really bad in Zimbabwe.

And like froggy said why are we demanding Mbeke do something when we dont expect London to? (aimed at myself as much as anyone)

A better question is, without the UN*, what right does anyone have to do anything?





* as in do we really have much 'moral authority' to say jack shit when it comes to intervention given the utter massacre we helped create in Iraq?

 

[KeyboardJockey]

I dont know whether anyone knows this, but did crime really explode following the end of apartheid or was it just that it began to effect the white community more?

From my reading it seemed a bit of both. The problem with crime statistics is Govts need them to seem as if they are reducing even if they are not.

You also have fear of crime as well.

 

[frogwoman]

That is certainly the impression that a lot of people are getting.

Then their impressions are wrong.

however, i agree there is a sort of "solidarity" thing among old african leaders of that region and a reluctance to criticise mugabe in public, especially in south africa, where the "land issue" is very sensitive among the public and a lot of people were dispossessed of their land during the apartheid regime and admire mugabe for that reason (without necessarily knowing the facts or endorsing his other actions)

 

[Belushi]

The whole Rhodesia-Zimbabwe thing is the first political event I was aware of. I remember asking my Dad about it and him being really pleased I was interested in politics (I must have been about 8).

For years I thought Mugabe was a hero

 

[frogwoman]

From my reading it seemed a bit of both. The problem with crime statistics is Govts need them to seem as if they are reducing even if they are not.

You also have fear of crime as well.

There is a tendency among some expat white south africans to want to depict south africa as having "gone to shit" since apartheid ended.

crime is a huge problem in south africa, i don't think anyone denies this, as is poverty. you can't really when there are still people living in shacks on the side of the road.

however, it is reducing and due to several high profile incidents has been a widespread outcry about it in SA society. don't forget that due to the history most South African black people have a huge distrust of the police which undoubtedly has an effect on whether criminals are turned in/convicted

 

[frogwoman]

If Mbeki or any other SA politician were to openly criticise mugabe for his actions it would play very badly and antagonise a section of the public who want faster action on the "land issue". again don't want to give too much info here ...

 

[frogwoman]

The whole Rhodesia-Zimbabwe thing is the first political event I was aware of. I remember asking my Dad about it and him being really pleased I was interested in politics (I must have been about 8).

For years I thought Mugabe was a hero

this is in part due to the distorted coverage which mugabe's regime was given in the media, playing up the number of white victims and making zimbabwe out to be a "racist" regime against whites, ignoring the fact that land reform definitely did need to be carried out and many of these farmers constituted an incredibly rich section of society, and downplaying the number of black victims, which must number hundreds of thousands (of deaths, without counting the millions of homes destroyed, the people who have suffered due to malnutrition, loss of employment due to the expropriation of land (not just white farmers, but those of his opponents), the people who can't buy anything they need in the shops, the destruction of business, etc).

for years he was seen by people as a hero because of what ian smith's regime had been like. in reality what he did just compounds generations of injustice done to the zimbabwean people

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Then their impressions are wrong.

however, i agree there is a sort of "solidarity" thing among old african leaders of that region and a reluctance to criticise mugabe in public, especially in south africa, where the "land issue" is very sensitive among the public and a lot of people were dispossessed of their land during the apartheid regime and admire mugabe for that reason (without necessarily knowing the facts or endorsing his other actions)

Spot on.

 

[Red Faction]

If Mbeki or any other SA politician were to openly criticise mugabe for his actions it would play very badly and antagonise a section of the public who want faster action on the "land issue". again don't want to give too much info here ...

because saying it on urban75 could trigger some sort of international crisis?!

ELECTION RESULTS SO FAR
Parliamentary constituencies
MDC-Tsvangirai: 25
Zanu-PF: 26
Breakaway MDC faction: 1
Yet to declare: 158

from the beeb just now

been watching it all day
cant believe its so slow

 

[KeyboardJockey]

* as in do we really have much 'moral authority' to say jack shit when it comes to intervention given the utter massacre we helped create in Iraq?

Which is why intervening in Zim to stabilise would be a good thing to do both morally and from a PR point of view for the British Govt and Forces.

I think in the current climate and regional considerations a force would have to be jointly led by the South Africans.

 

[frogwoman]

because saying it on urban75 could trigger some sort of international crisis?!

ELECTION RESULTS SO FAR
Parliamentary constituencies
MDC-Tsvangirai: 25
Zanu-PF: 26
Breakaway MDC faction: 1
Yet to declare: 158

from the beeb just now

been watching it all day
cant believe its so slow

basically, there is a split within the anc of jacob zuma and others who pursue a more "radical", ((mostly socialist-sounding, but occasionally nationalist) style of politics with faster action being demanded on these issues, and people like mbeki who want to do it all more gradually. were mbeki to criticise mugabe publically this could alienate a LOT of supporters from voting for people who endorse his policies ...

 

[Belushi]

Which is why intervening in Zim to stabilise would be a good thing to do both morally and from a PR point of view for the British Govt and Forces.

I think in the current climate and regional considerations a force would have to be jointly led by the South Africans.

I'm not sure troops from an ex-colonial power is ever going to go down well among Africans. Perhaps the SA Govt should intervene and London pick up the tab.

 

[frogwoman]

Which is why intervening in Zim to stabilise would be a good thing to do both morally and from a PR point of view for the British Govt and Forces.

I think in the current climate and regional considerations a force would have to be jointly led by the South Africans.

I disagree completely. i think if anyone should intervene it is south africa and other regional countries. after all, they are the ones who are most affected by this. how many refugee camps of zimbabwean refugees do you see in Britain (or would you, even if the government didn't keep sending them all back?)

the west, and Britain in particular, should stay well fucking out, given the history and given the response which such irresponsible action could elicit in South Africa itself.

 

[Red Faction]

just because we're not their colonial masters any more doesnt mean we shouldnt act like it

 

[frogwoman]

just because we're not their colonial masters any more doesnt mean we shouldnt act like it

exactly .

you want to see south africa and other neighbouring countries destabilised after building up the stability and civil society they've been so carefully trying to promote after the damage apartheid and colonialism caused them? you want to see "anti-white" demonstrations on a mass scale in SA? then britain should stay the fuck out of this situation because any "humanitarian intervention" aimed at making an example of zimbabwe will ruin the whole fucking region ...

sorry, this is a subject that really upsets me, especially because such an intervention would have direct consequences for many people i know and care about ... think about what you say before you say it ...

british troops going into an african country, especially in that part of africa, to "intervene" is not an option ... period ...

 

[Kid_Eternity]

I'm not sure troops from an ex-colonial power is ever going to go down well among Africans. Perhaps the SA Govt should intervene and London pick up the tab.

You want your taxes to go up to pay for that?

 

[Belushi]

You want your taxes to go up to pay for that?

Its the least we can do.

 

[Idris2002]

It's 10,000 times better than it was 15 years ago.

Most saffies over here whinge about the crime and economy until they've had a couple of beers. Then you find out what they're really moaning about.

HELL YES.

If that shower ever get the Mugabe treatment, they'll have only themselves to blame.

(caveat; there are good white South Africans, but there are still too many who get the rest of them a bad name).

 

[Idris2002]

Then their impressions are wrong.

however, i agree there is a sort of "solidarity" thing among old african leaders of that region and a reluctance to criticise mugabe in public, especially in south africa, where the "land issue" is very sensitive among the public and a lot of people were dispossessed of their land during the apartheid regime and admire mugabe for that reason (without necessarily knowing the facts or endorsing his other actions)

Very true, but remember as well that the land issue in SA takes a different form because the backbone of the country's economy is the mines, and because SA is well on its way to being a mainly (or even wholly) urban society.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

I disagree completely. i think if anyone should intervene it is south africa and other regional countries. after all, they are the ones who are most affected by this. how many refugee camps of zimbabwean refugees do you see in Britain (or would you, even if the government didn't keep sending them all back?)

the west, and Britain in particular, should stay well fucking out, given the history and given the response which such irresponsible action could elicit in South Africa itself.

I can see where you are coming from. But it is the history that may give an advantage here. Not saying we should re colonise or anything like that but the transition to majority rule was handled badly and the Lancaster House agreement overlooked the accumulation of repressive colonial and post UDI legislation that Mugabe used to silence media and build an even more repressive system.

If Britain was part of a joint SA/UK stabilisation force not only would it secure the country and act as a logistics network for emergency food aid but would send an important message to the Chinese re Africa.

It may well be the lack of action to aid militarily and civilly Zimbabwe is a direct result of Tony's Middle East Misadventure. Blair has by his actions left us unable to help to call a halt to Chinese African expansion the effect of which is to be seen to devastating effect in Darfur.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

just because we're not their colonial masters any more doesnt mean we shouldnt act like it

I don't think that we should be our former colonies colonial masters again but we need to aid those who are facing a new form of colonisation from the Chinese.

The Chinese don't give a stuff about Human Rights. I noticed that the water cannon that Mugabe had running round the streets I would lay money that these came in some way either directly from or diverted en route (with Chinese blind eyes IYSWIM) to Zim.

 

[dylanredefined]

well we succeeded in sierra Leone so if we were invited in with the backing of south Africa it could work .Reinacting ex rohdesians wild geese fantasies wouldn't work .

 

[FridgeMagnet]

I noticed that the water cannon that Mugabe had running round the streets I would lay money that these came in some way either directly from or diverted en route (with Chinese blind eyes IYSWIM) to Zim.

You mean the damnable Chinese are threatening Britain's position as supplier of Policing Gear To Regimes Which Of Course Comply With Ethical Guidelines, According To Their Own Internal Investigations? Disgraceful! God dammit, if we're being beaten in sales of electric shock equipment and armoured vehicles, what is the world coming to????

 

[KeyboardJockey]

well we succeeded in sierra Leone so if we were invited in with the backing of south Africa it could work .

Yes.

Reinacting ex rohdesians wild geese fantasies wouldn't work .

Very much agree there. These types need to be kept well out of the way so that they don't discredit the operation.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

You mean the damnable Chinese are threatening Britain's position as supplier of Policing Gear To Regimes Which Of Course Comply With Ethical Guidelines, According To Their Own Internal Investigations? Disgraceful! God dammit, if we're being beaten in sales of electric shock equipment and armoured vehicles, what is the world coming to????

Armoured vehicles are legit things for Govts to own. The UK does monitor situations and human rights is taken into account when supplying goods such as armoured vehicles and riotshields etc etc.

As for electrical shock equiipment you will find that apart from Tazers a lot of it is covered by the EU Torture Regulations which incidentally was partially inspired by voluntary UK moritorium on supply of some of the nastier things like leg irons, execution equipment (not that we supplied any anyway) and equipemnt that could be used for torture.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Clearly Britain is not going to be exporting water cannon and cattle prods to Zimbabwe; the latter regime is not currently favoured by the former regime. The idea that the Chinese govt cares less about human rights than the British govt, though, is plain daft, considering who has been involved in what invasions recently. Neither of them care. I would be interested in seeing a government which does, for that matter, beyond the degree to which it cannot help without facing internal issues.

 

[Red Faction]

MDC-Tsvangirai: 30
Zanu-PF: 31
Breakaway MDC faction: 5
Yet to declare: 144

from the bbc now- seems more like it!

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Clearly Britain is not going to be exporting water cannon and cattle prods to Zimbabwe; the latter regime is not currently favoured by the former regime. The idea that the Chinese govt cares less about human rights than the British govt, though, is plain daft, considering who has been involved in what invasions recently. Neither of them care. I would be interested in seeing a government which does, for that matter, beyond the degree to which it cannot help without facing internal issues.

I think if you look at Darfur you will see how by having close relations with the Sudanese Govt and turning a blind eye to their abuses the true picture with the Chinese and African human rights.

Agree that Iraq has been a total fuck up. But just because one intervention goes disasterously wrong under one leader doesn't mean it will go disasterously wrong under another.

 

[frogwoman]

I can see where you are coming from. But it is the history that may give an advantage here. Not saying we should re colonise or anything like that but the transition to majority rule was handled badly and the Lancaster House agreement overlooked the accumulation of repressive colonial and post UDI legislation that Mugabe used to silence media and build an even more repressive system.

If Britain was part of a joint SA/UK stabilisation force not only would it secure the country and act as a logistics network for emergency food aid but would send an important message to the Chinese re Africa.

It may well be the lack of action to aid militarily and civilly Zimbabwe is a direct result of Tony's Middle East Misadventure. Blair has by his actions left us unable to help to call a halt to Chinese African expansion the effect of which is to be seen to devastating effect in Darfur.

i don't think you grasp what would be the significance of this event to much of the south african public

largely white, troops from britain of all places, persuading the south african government into going into zimbabwe to get rid of robert mugabe

think about it

these people live in a country with enormous inequality, where most of the white population (although not all, especially among the afrikaners) and quite a few of the black population now live in luxury

the refugee issue brings an added dimention to the problem, immigration is a thorny issue in the richest countries of the west, in south africa thousands of refugees have flooded the country in recent years from mugabe's rule. much of them are better trained, better educated and are able to find a job much easier than the south african poor

there are not a few demagogues inside the anc and outside it, willing to exploit such sentiments

how do you think they are going to feel, and also know that the south african army are dying for something that, in their view, would be instigated by britain?

a man who is depicted in the worst of the south african meadia as having the guts to stand up to white rule and colonialism and being "punished" for it.

leading "our boys" off to go into the heart of darkness and do battle with zanu pf might be a good idea in principle but in practice it is one of the worst ones i have ever heard ...

 

[FridgeMagnet]

I hope you realise that Ken Livingstone has been appointed to handle government policy in Zimbabwe....