Is Jean Marie Le Pen living proof that the UK is more tolerant than France?

[guinnessdrinker]

I read the text he said "The French".

don't be disingenuous. this what he said:

French political classes and military heirarchy (personified in Petain).

 

[ViolentPanda]

read the text, he is talking about the political establishment and the military hierarchy (apart from De Gaulle, famously), not your ordinary Johnny Frenchman.

Conversely, perhaps Brockway actually knows what I mean better than I do.

Nah.

He's come up with his own spurious reading (which appears to be outwith the context of the thread, naturally ), and he's sticking to it, however much of a goon he makes himself look.

Fine by me, and probably fine by Juliette Greco too.

 

[guinnessdrinker]

If you are, then you'll know that your analogy of "soldiers outside the house threatening..." is absolute gash, and that serious aggravation between Vichy and Germany only took place around '44 when Hitler "lost the plot big-time" on his western and eastern fronts.

indeed. have you ever heard of Maurice Papon, brockway?

 

[kyser_soze]

Oh come on. If there was a bunch of soldiers outside your house threatening to shoot your dad and rape your sister and they offered to spare them if you colluded what would you do? There's a basic human instinct for self-preservation when faced with death. France was occupied we weren't - don't be so smug.

Actually there were a large number of French men and women who did PRECISELY this; refused to be cowed or to collaborate with the Germans and they or their famileis suffered greatly because of it - in fact it happened all over Europe where a resistance group formed, including Nazi Germany.

And it was REALLY obvious that VP was referring to the French élite, not every man, woman and child as individuals (altho if asked you'll find the French are far more aware of a national character and what 'being' French, and what France stands for than the English). Also, as has been pointed out, the French have been far more effective at wiping out regional variations on their language than the English.

 

[Brockway]

You're either disingenuous or a village is missing it's idiot.


If you're going to do cheap insults do try and make them original or at least amusing.


By France I mean (and it appears to be plainly obvious to everyone except you) the France that is an idea of an "ideal type" in people's heads, the mythic France that the country's establishment attempts to instil in the imagination of the peoples of France.


Now you are retrospectively changing what you said. What you actually said was this: "The French have an obsession with retaining some kind of mythical "purity" within their culture." Oh and when did you develop the magic power to see inside people's heads?


Oh, and I'd rather generalise (smugly or not) than attempt to construct a premise around individual cases.


I wouldn't - I'd rather show you the individual case that blows your generalisation out of the water. I suspect there are millions of these "individual cases".


Language changes, it evolves, it is fluid. If you have interchange and intersection between cultures you get hybridisation or what purists might term "contamination". It's a fact of life, what I or anyone else might want is immaterial in the face of that fact.


I haven't said that it isn't fluid or that it doesn't evolve. All I'm saying is that wanting to preserve it doesn't make anyone a Fascist. You'd get plenty of Brits wanting to preserve English if they felt it was being usurped by a non-anglo language. Or do you honestly think there wouldn't be any fuss and people wouldn't be getting all dewy eyed about the language of Keats and Wordsworth etc? People get upset about what they perceive to be the debasing of language in texting.


We don't speak the same language as "the Americans", we speak a similar but separate language, but "American-English" has been going it's own way (and evolving and borrowing) for 200 years or so now, with exposure to some influences that "Standard English" as spoken and written in the UK hasn't come across.

...

 

[Brockway]

Are you aware of how long the negotiations over surrender and occupation took, the terms of the negotiations, the terms finally agreed on or the broad concessions gained by the Vichy state?

If you are, then you'll know that your analogy of "soldiers outside the house threatening..." is absolute gash, and that serious aggravation between Vichy and Germany only took place around '44 when Hitler "lost the plot big-time" on his western and eastern fronts.

You'll be telling me that the British made a significant military contribution to the war effort next...

 

[Brockway]

don't be disingenuous. this what he said:

I'm not being disingenuous. This is what he said: "The French have an obsession with retaining some kind of mythical "purity" within their culture"

 

[Brockway]

Are you aware of how long the negotiations over surrender and occupation took, the terms of the negotiations, the terms finally agreed on or the broad concessions gained by the Vichy state?

If you are, then you'll know that your analogy of "soldiers outside the house threatening..." is absolute gash, and that serious aggravation between Vichy and Germany only took place around '44 when Hitler "lost the plot big-time" on his western and eastern fronts.

Well maybe they thought rather than allow their people to get slaughtered; their lovely buildings get bombed to fuck, they'd go along with it for the time being. I wouldn't regard Vichy as a wholesale endorsement of Nazism.

 

[Brockway]

Conversely, perhaps Brockway actually knows what I mean better than I do.

Nah.

He's come up with his own spurious reading (which appears to be outwith the context of the thread, naturally ), and he's sticking to it, however much of a goon he makes himself look.

Fine by me, and probably fine by Juliette Greco too.

You said: "The French have an obsession with retaining some kind of mythical "purity" within their culture" It's there for all to see. Got anymore glib anti-French generalisations?

 

[kyser_soze]

Many in France do have that obsession - that there is a government department dedicated to ensuring the language stays sufficiently 'French' and that there are cultural quotas on film, TV and music says a lot. Certainly, the French elite have this approach to the world, and that attitude does pervade much of French culture.

 

[Brockway]

Many in France do have that obsession.

How many?

 

[guinnessdrinker]

I'm not being disingenuous. This is what he said: "The French have an obsession with retaining some kind of mythical "purity" within their culture"

you are being disigenuous and trolling as well. just go back and see precisely for yourself what post I was referring to.

and for the statement you quote, see my reply to that. it's all in the thread and I can't be bothered digging it out for you.

 

[guinnessdrinker]

How many?

you want precise numbers?

 

[guinnessdrinker]

Well maybe they thought rather than allow their people to get slaughtered; their lovely buildings get bombed to fuck, they'd go along with it for the time being. I wouldn't regard Vichy as a wholesale endorsement of Nazism.

only many did more than their fair share of collaboration with the enemy. many were shot as the war unfolded and after that as well. many others were pardoned and went on to become influential figures in the French state.

 

[guinnessdrinker]

...

so you haven't got an answer, have you?

 

[guinnessdrinker]

indeed. have you ever heard of Maurice Papon, brockway?

Brockway, will you reply to this question?

 

[Brockway]

you want precise numbers?

Yes please. Don't tell me you don't know the exact figures. Having read VioletPanda's: "The French have an obsession with retaining some kind of mythical "purity" within their culture" I assumed it was all of them.

 

[Brockway]

only many did more than their fair share of collaboration with the enemy. many were shot as the war unfolded and after that as well. many others were pardoned and went on to become influential figures in the French state.

I'm not saying French people didn't collaborate of course some of them did - but do you honestly think that if Britain had been occupied then some British people wouldn't have collaborated too? There may even have been some political compromise to stop further bloodshed. Who knows?

 

[Brockway]

so you haven't got an answer, have you?

to what exactly? I have been referring to VioletPanda's glib anti-French generalisation that "The French have an obsession with retaining some kind of mythical "purity" within their culture". You then quote something else by him for some reason known only to yourself and start calling me disingenuous. You're confused mate. And having an opinion that differs from yours is not trolling.

 

[Brockway]

Brockway, will you reply to this question?

What's the point of answering your question if you are going to constantly call me disingenuous even though I keep referring you to the original statement made by VioletPanda: "The French have an obsession with retaining some kind of mythical "purity" within their culture". He asked me to provide evidence of French-bashing and there it is. He then starts backtracking and saying he meant the "elite" but if he meant that he should have said it. I can't see the phrase "French elite" in there anywhere - can you?

 

[Brockway]

The French have an obsession with retaining some kind of mythical "purity" within their culture, and that means white, Catholic culture, whether that culture is peasant, bourgeois or aristocratic.
QUOTE]

There you go. Tell me that's not a massive anti-French generalisation.

 

[Calva dosser]

Show me a Catholic in this town, and I'll show you a child molester.

I think 'Vote Royal, or your tractor stays in the ditch' says it all. They don't adore Royal, but when the alternative is Sarko....

Actually, If Royal did get it, maybe she'd get it off with toyboy Cameron. Now thet WOULD change Euro politiques.

 

[ViolentPanda]

...

Learn how to quote posts properly, Brockway. There's a dear.

 

[ViolentPanda]

to what exactly? I have been referring to VioletPanda's glib anti-French generalisation that "The French have an obsession with retaining some kind of mythical "purity" within their culture".

"Anti-French". That's good. If only you knew how good.

 

[Pete the Greek]

The French have an obsession with retaining some kind of mythical "purity" within their culture, and that means white, Catholic culture, whether that culture is peasant, bourgeois or aristocratic.
QUOTE]

There you go. Tell me that's not a massive anti-French generalisation.

Brockway, I've met some really pro-French socialists in my time, and even they tell me: "er, I have to be honest, but France is a racist country. There's no two ways about it, the French, by and large, are very, very anti-black people."

That isn't a direct quote, but is a similar response I have received many times on the subject.

I feel it is widely acknowledged by people who have visited France on numerous occassions, that the country is actually quite intolerant of non-whites.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The French have an obsession with retaining some kind of mythical "purity" within their culture, and that means white, Catholic culture, whether that culture is peasant, bourgeois or aristocratic.
QUOTE]

There you go. Tell me that's not a massive anti-French generalisation.

You're still having trouble posting quotes, I see.

What I'd like you to do is to actually prove (without your sad attempts referencing a handful of individuals) that I'm wrong, because all I've got from you so far is a load of old fanny that comprises 95% sneering and 5% substance, and the 5% substance isn't exactly informative.

 

[Brockway]

Brockway, I've met some really pro-French socialists in my time, and even they tell me: "er, I have to be honest, but France is a racist country. There's no two ways about it, the French, by and large, are very, very anti-black people."

That isn't a direct quote, but is a similar response I have received many times on the subject.

I feel it is widely acknowledged by people who have visited France on numerous occassions, that the country is actually quite intolerant of non-whites.

I'm not saying that there aren't French racists Pete - I'm sure there are plenty. But the idea that British people are less so seems ridiculous to me. I once saw my ex-boss wipe a chair with a handkerchief after a black man had sat in it. I was on the DLR once going through Shadwell and there was a lovely smell of Asian food wafting into the train and this woman was telling her kid that they (asians) weren't clean people. I bet neither of those people voted for the BNP.

 

[Brockway]

You're still having trouble posting quotes, I see.

What I'd like you to do is to actually prove (without your sad attempts referencing a handful of individuals) that I'm wrong, because all I've got from you so far is a load of old fanny that comprises 95% sneering and 5% substance, and the 5% substance isn't exactly informative.

I'm not having trouble posting quotes. Look, here's one of an anti-French generalisation you made earlier:

"The French have an obsession with retaining some kind of mythical "purity" within their culture".

 

[Calva dosser]

IMO that's accurate.
The French have an obsession with retaining some kind of mythical "purity" within their culture, and that means white, Catholic culture, whether that culture is peasant, bourgeois or aristocratic.
Islam is an excuse, and peddled by a former torturer of Muslims such as le Pen, it has even less credibility than it might otherwise retain, because the man has a hard-on for non-whites.

The old gar got you there I'm afraid.

I don't know many Frogs like that.

Some do have a prob with the Algerian sit. There was some very heavy shit went down on both sides. I suspect it will take two countries centuries to forget that.

 

[kyser_soze]

Actually, If Royal did get it, maybe she'd get it off with toyboy Cameron. Now thet WOULD change Euro politiques.

You've been thinking about this, haven't you?