Is Jean Marie Le Pen living proof that the UK is more tolerant than France?

[guinnessdrinker]

2. Despite what I've said in point 1, I've always felt from my travels to France that the UK has managed to combine integration/multiculturalism far, far better than France.

the notion of multiculturalism is very much criticised in france (called communautarism over there. it's a bit like they all have to itentikit french and renounce their past.

it gets crazy: I read about a town in the very north of france where local muslim women wanted just a few hours of the local swimming pool for themselves. the local mayor was up in arms against it. what was it all about he confused islam and the fact that some women regardless of religion or lack of it might not like the presence of men near their naked body in the water.

 

[guinnessdrinker]

I don't get erotically aroused by such things - I prefer women.

good for you

You lot carry on slapping yourselves on the back about how tolerant the Brits are and how awful those Frenchies are

definitely not this lot. this is not a UKIP forum, you know.

 

[guinnessdrinker]

Agree wholeheartedly, the French seem to delight is disliking everyone else and even more so if they're even a hint darker than natural chalk.

not quite true, chinese/vietnamese people are not generally discriminated against (they fled communism....). after all the hulabaloo about the veil, the very small sikh threatened to leave to country for sunny britain, headteachers and ministers were trying to find solutions to the fact that sikh boys would not be allowed their headdress. and they won't mind generally french west indians (they're french).

 

[ViolentPanda]

I don't get erotically aroused by such things - I prefer women.

So you say.

You lot carry on slapping yourselves on the back about how tolerant the Brits are and how awful those Frenchies are.

So why not point out these incidences of "frog-bashing" then, or these incidences of self-congratulatory behaviour?

I'm guessing that your premise is weaker than a day-old kitten, but if you can show otherwise I'll happily concede your point.

 

[nino_savatte]

I don't get erotically aroused by such things - I prefer women. You lot carry on slapping yourselves on the back about how tolerant the Brits are and how awful those Frenchies are.

Quoi?

 

[disownedspirit]

... and regarded the peoples of it's colonial possessions as at best 2nd-class citizens....

this is true but at least they get a vote in guadalope, guyanne, martinique etc and can vote for le pen if they want, in the election, compare this to the british colonies overseas.
i might be wrong but i dont think the tolerant brits give their colonies the same rights ?

 

[nino_savatte]

this is true but at least they get a vote in guadalope, guyanne, martinique etc and can vote for le pen if they want, in the election, compare this to the british colonies overseas.
i might be wrong but i dont think the tolerant brits give their colonies the same rights ?

I think so but then there are very few actual British colonies left. The nly ones that I can think of are Gibraltar and....well, the Falklands is actually referred to as a "Dependency", though how it actually differs from a colony is possibly a matter of semantics.

 

[Brockway]

So you say.


So why not point out these incidences of "frog-bashing" then, or these incidences of self-congratulatory behaviour?

I'm guessing that your premise is weaker than a day-old kitten, but if you can show otherwise I'll happily concede your point.

First you start talking about hard-ons, then you go on about day-old kittens - you say some weird things ViolentPanda.

OK, here's some negative and wholly generalised guff about the French from you:

"The French have an obsession with retaining some kind of mythical "purity" within their culture, and that means white, Catholic culture, whether that culture is peasant, bourgeois or aristocratic."

Oh really? Does that apply to say Jean Paul Sartre? What about that bloke who used to present Eurotrash? Thierry Henri? Juliet Greco?

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

I think France's image of being more 'left-leaning' comes far more from its foreign policy (i.e. not just blindly following the US into every latest crazy foreign invasion) than from its domestic one.

 

[nino_savatte]

I think France's image of being more 'left-leaning' comes far more from its foreign policy (i.e. not just blindly following the US into every latest crazy foreign invasion) than from its domestic one.

Sure and the French foreign policy, particularly with regards to the Middle East, tends to more inclusive and more Arabist.

 

[disownedspirit]

I think so but then there are very few actual British colonies left. The nly ones that I can think of are Gibraltar and....well, the Falklands is actually referred to as a "Dependency", though how it actually differs from a colony is possibly a matter of semantics.

just had a look on the fco website

Anguilla, British Antarctic Territory, Bermuda, British Indian Ocean Territory, British Virgin Islands, Cayman Islands, Falkland Islands, Gibraltar, Montserrat, St Helena and Dependencies (Ascension Island and Tristan da Cunha), Turk and Caicos Islands, Pitcairn Island, South Georgia and South Sandwich Islands, Sovereign Base Areas on Cyprus

6. Are British citizens from the OTs eligible to vote in British elections?

Not while resident in their territories or elsewhere. If resident in Britain they are, as British overseas territory citizens or British citizens, able to vote if they satisfy the normal UK residence and registration requirements.

 

[nino_savatte]

just had a look on the fco website

Still there are very few places that are actually referred to as "colonies". They tend be referred to as "dependencies". There are only two people living on South Georgia btw.

But not giving citizens of the territories the vote really stinks. At least those living in DOM TOM territories are regarded as full citizens.

 

[disownedspirit]

I think France's image of being more 'left-leaning' comes far more from its foreign policy (i.e. not just blindly following the US into every latest crazy foreign invasion) than from its domestic one.

not sure about that. remember the nuclear tests , mitterand blowing up that greenpeace ship, the treatment of the ex colonies in africa all come to mind.

whilst in france you have the 35 hour week, a pretty good welfare system (in comparison to the uk), fairly strong unions and employment legislation.

this is why sarkozy was talking recently about 'rupture' with the old french social model, sarko wants an end to these things and a more neo liberal system. whilst the UK was undergoing thatcherism the french elected their first left wing president and he was fairly left wing socially in france but that didnt stop him blowing up the rainbow warrior because he saw it as a threat to the french national interest.

 

[kyser_soze]

The terms left and right in France don't have the same meaning they have in the UK - for example, there is accord between both sides over the dirigiste model of the state; of the universal education system that takes the national curriculum to a degree unthinkable of in the UK; the continuance of sourcing future leaders from les grandes écoles.

The French have a different notion of their pact with the State than the British, which is something that's easy to forget.

 

[Brockway]

What about Vichy France? Half the country in cahoots with Nazi Germany and their fascist ideals during the second world war.

We gave them Lord Haw-Haw and a few housewives who couldn't keep their mouths shut down the local market.

France has a history of grand-scale collusion with European Fascism...Britain doesn't.

Do you think there would have been zero collusion if Britain had been occupied? It's an entirely theoretical question of course but my guess is there would have been some collusion, perhaps even widespread.

 

[Belushi]

Do you think there would have been zero collusion if Britain had been occupied? It's an entirely theoretical question of course but my guess is there would have been some collusion, perhaps even widespread.

With that King Edward back on the throne and Lord Halifax as PM before you knew it, with the Daily Mail right behind them.

There was plenty of fascist sympathisers in Britain in the 1930s, especially among the Tory Party.

 

[nino_savatte]

France has a history of grand-scale collusion with European Fascism...Britain doesn't. .

Er, no it doesn't and it's pretty obvious that you've done no reading on French history.

 

[ViolentPanda]

First you start talking about hard-ons, then you go on about day-old kittens - you say some weird things ViolentPanda.

OK, here's some negative and wholly generalised guff about the French from you:

"The French have an obsession with retaining some kind of mythical "purity" within their culture, and that means white, Catholic culture, whether that culture is peasant, bourgeois or aristocratic."

Oh really? Does that apply to say Jean Paul Sartre? What about that bloke who used to present Eurotrash? Thierry Henri? Juliet Greco?

So the French don't have regulations governing the import of cultural artefacts, then?

So they don't have language purity legislation?

Just mentioning a handful of individuals (mostly Catholic, by the way! ) doesn't do anything to disprove my point and doesn't even begin to prove your premise about "frog-bashing".

Must try harder, Brockway!

 

[ViolentPanda]

Do you think there would have been zero collusion if Britain had been occupied? It's an entirely theoretical question of course but my guess is there would have been some collusion, perhaps even widespread.

We already know that there were elements of the British "upper class" and aristocracy (and a small minority of politicians in the Commons) who were sympathetic to Hitler and who bankrolled Mosley's attempts at fascism in the 1930s, whereas Vichy, at least in the history books, appears to have been much more a decision of the French political classes and military heirarchy (personified in Petain).

 

[guinnessdrinker]

OK, here's some negative and wholly generalised guff about the French from you:

"The French have an obsession with retaining some kind of mythical "purity" within their culture, "

try learning french grammar in a french primary school, young man.

have you ever heard of the Academy Francaise? Francophony?

 

[Brockway]

So the French don't have regulations governing the import of cultural artefacts, then?

So they don't have language purity legislation?

Just mentioning a handful of individuals (mostly Catholic, by the way! ) doesn't do anything to disprove my point and doesn't even begin to prove your premise about "frog-bashing".

Must try harder, Brockway!

Pah! Could you elaborate on Juliet Greco's obsession with retaining a mythical purity please? She didn't have such an obsession did she? Go on, admit it...

It disproves your point TOTALLY btw because I'd guess there are millions of people in France who aren't remotely "obsessed" with retaining a mythical purity. And you know it. You can't just smugly generalise on a grand scale like that and expect to be taken seriously.

As for wanting to preserve your language that doesn't make you a fascist. The French language is lovely - surely you don't want to see it colonised by Anglo-Americanese Violent Panda?

You speak English and the dominant cultural language in the west is American-English so it's a question that doesn't even arise here. If we didn't speak the same language as the Americans I reckon there would be plenty of antipathy towards it - I mean people get upset here about perceived European interference about the categorization of their bananas for heaven sake. So until we are at the cultural mercy of a country that doesn't speak the same language as us we won't really know what it means (unless you are Welsh of course then you'll know precisely what it means).

 

[ViolentPanda]

try learning french grammar in a french primary school, young man.

have you ever heard of the Academy Francaise? Francophony?

Petain was elected to the Academy (pre-Vichy).

Of course, they did expel him post-Vichy.

 

[Brockway]

We already know that there were elements of the British "upper class" and aristocracy (and a small minority of politicians in the Commons) who were sympathetic to Hitler and who bankrolled Mosley's attempts at fascism in the 1930s, whereas Vichy, at least in the history books, appears to have been much more a decision of the French political classes and military heirarchy (personified in Petain).

Oh come on. If there was a bunch of soldiers outside your house threatening to shoot your dad and rape your sister and they offered to spare them if you colluded what would you do? There's a basic human instinct for self-preservation when faced with death. France was occupied we weren't - don't be so smug.

 

[guinnessdrinker]

Pah! Could you elaborate on Juliet Greco's obsession with retaining a mythical purity please? She didn't have such an obsession did she? Go on, admit it...

he has never made such claim about Juliet Greco

It disproves your point TOTALLY btw because I'd guess there are millions of people in France who aren't remotely "obsessed" with retaining a mythical purity. And you know it. You can't just smugly generalise on a grand scale like that and expect to be taken seriously.

I would assume he is probably talking about the french cultural establishment. see my post above

As for wanting to preserve your language that doesn't make you a fascist. The French language is lovely - surely you don't want to see it colonised by Anglo-Americanese Violent Panda?

do you actually know french, official french grammar, the Academy Francaise? languages do evolve, you know, as english from 1066 onward from a certain bunch of invaders, and a couple of centuries or so earlier from another bunch of tourists.

I mean people get upset here about perceived European interference about the categorization of their bananas for heaven sake.

the UKIP has yet to have any MPs. the french get equally upset at various european rules.

 

[guinnessdrinker]

Oh come on. If there was a bunch of soldiers outside your house threatening to shoot your dad and rape your sister and they offered to spare them if you colluded what would you do? There's a basic human instinct for self-preservation when faced with death. France was occupied we weren't - don't be so smug.

read the text, he is talking about the political establishment and the military hierarchy (apart from De Gaulle, famously), not your ordinary Johnny Frenchman.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Pah! Could you elaborate on Juliet Greco's obsession with retaining a mythical purity please? She didn't have such an obsession did she? Go on, admit it...

It disproves your point TOTALLY btw because I'd guess there are millions of people in France who aren't remotely "obsessed" with retaining a mythical purity. And you know it. You can't just smugly generalise on a grand scale like that and expect to be taken seriously.

You're either disingenuous or a village is missing it's idiot.
By France I mean (and it appears to be plainly obvious to everyone except you) the France that is an idea of an "ideal type" in people's heads, the mythic France that the country's establishment attempts to instil in the imagination of the peoples of France.

Oh, and I'd rather generalise (smugly or not) than attempt to construct a premise around individual cases.

As for wanting to preserve your language that doesn't make you a fascist. The French language is lovely - surely you don't want to see it colonised by Anglo-Americanese Violent Panda?

Language changes, it evolves, it is fluid. If you have interchange and intersection between cultures you get hybridisation or what purists might term "contamination". It's a fact of life, what I or anyone else might want is immaterial in the face of that fact.

You speak English and the dominant cultural language in the west is American-English so it's a question that doesn't even arise here. If we didn't speak the same language as the Americans I reckon there would be plenty of antipathy towards it - I mean people get upset here about perceived European interference about the categorization of their bananas for heaven sake. So until we are at the cultural mercy of a country that doesn't speak the same language as us we won't really know what it means (unless you are Welsh of course then you'll know precisely what it means).

We don't speak the same language as "the Americans", we speak a similar but separate language, but "American-English" has been going it's own way (and evolving and borrowing) for 200 years or so now, with exposure to some influences that "Standard English" as spoken and written in the UK hasn't come across.

 

[Brockway]

he has never made such claim about Juliet Greco



I would assume he is probably talking about the french cultural establishment. see my post above



do you actually know french, official french grammar, the Academy Francaise? languages do evolve, you know, as english from 1066 onward from a certain bunch of invaders, and a couple of centuries or so earlier from another bunch of tourists.



the UKIP has yet to have any MPs. the french get equally upset at various european rules.

He made such a claim about "the French" that includes Juliette Greco. He's generalising and he mentioned all classes. He's talking bollocks.

I know language evolves. Do you know that the Welsh word for taxi is tacsi? I just wonder whether - if for example the dominant cultural language was Chinese rather than American-English - some English people would be crying out to save their language. I suspect they would.

 

[Brockway]

read the text, he is talking about the political establishment and the military hierarchy (apart from De Gaulle, famously), not your ordinary Johnny Frenchman.

I read the text he said "The French".

 

[guinnessdrinker]

So until we are at the cultural mercy of a country that doesn't speak the same language as us we won't really know what it means (unless you are Welsh of course then you'll know precisely what it means).

or breton, basque, alsatian (less so, but still), corsican, occitan/catalan/provencal, picard or any other speaker of now defunct french dialects that you can think off.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Oh come on. If there was a bunch of soldiers outside your house threatening to shoot your dad and rape your sister and they offered to spare them if you colluded what would you do? There's a basic human instinct for self-preservation when faced with death. France was occupied we weren't - don't be so smug.

Are you aware of how long the negotiations over surrender and occupation took, the terms of the negotiations, the terms finally agreed on or the broad concessions gained by the Vichy state?

If you are, then you'll know that your analogy of "soldiers outside the house threatening..." is absolute gash, and that serious aggravation between Vichy and Germany only took place around '44 when Hitler "lost the plot big-time" on his western and eastern fronts.