Is it worth arguing politics with middle-class people?

[chilango]

So you basically think it's not possible for middle-class people to look beyond their own material self-interest? For a lot of them it's harder, I think, mostly because of basic human psychology, but not impossible. I'm in no doubt that my upbringing and social position cloud my thinking and judgement on things*, but I'm genuinely trying to learn and understand the bigger outside of my relatively comfortable bubble.

And this is in no way meant to be a "oh, aren't I wonderful for thinking of the little people" thing, simply a counter to the idea that middle-class people can't even conceive of such things.




*as they do with everyone, btw

Course they can.

But this isn't intended as a bash the m/c thread.

Rather a bash chilango for being lazy thread.

 

[Cid]

Really?

Was sat in on an argument the other day about the junior doctors, and a mild social democrat was taking a pounding from the others for not completely condemning them.

I couldn't be arsed joining in.

I mean, best case scenario is that all of sudden they all agree with me, then what?

Pah.

Is it fair to to write them off like this and save my energies for discussing concrete stuff with people at the point where they can change stuff - i.e. workplace/community issues, and with people whose interests might be in changing stuff, rather than grandstanding debates with people whose interests lie in keeping things as they are and who haven't the power to change things even if they wanted to?

Or am I being lazy?

How many junior doctors do you think are w/c?

 

[chilango]

Aren't you a teacher and therefore one of these types of people?
And if you work in a school, you will be arguing with other middle class people.

No.

...and no.

Edit: To clarify, No I'm not one of these "types" and nor are many of my colleagues, but the i don't just talk to teachers at work, I talk to other workers just as much. But then equally my workplace is not typical. I don't work in what you would recognise as a "school". I'm also not typical for a "teacher".

 

[stethoscope]

I've encountered lots of people over the years who think they're 'right on' yet supporting strike action (especially tube workers) and even junior doctors seems to bring out the right wing tendencies in abundance.

 

[chilango]

How many junior doctors do you think are w/c?

I'm not bothered about the junior doctors.

That was an illustration.

 

[chilango]

"These types of people"? If you don't spend any amount of time with them, how do you know what the "middle class" are saying, doing, voting?

Do you think they are one big homogenous grouping, they all think alike in some hive mentality fashion?

I'm not talking about the whole of the middle-class.

I'm talking about a particular type of middle-class person.

But y'know I guess my OP has provoked a bit of insecure defensiveness on here.

 

[Cid]

I'm not bothered about the junior doctors.

That was an illustration.

I realise that. Extending that illustration it seems quite likely that striking m/c junior doctors have some sympathy with striking in general.

 

[krtek a houby]

I'm not talking about the whole of the middle-class.

I'm talking about a particular type of middle-class person.

But y'know I guess my OP has provoked a bit of insecure defensiveness on here.

No, I think rather than writing off an entire swathe of people; you might want to change your thread title to
Is it worth arguing politics with some particular middle-class people, you know, the bastard ones?

 

[chilango]

I realise that. Extending that illustration it seems quite likely that striking m/c junior doctors have some sympathy with striking in general.

That maybe so.

The idea of however middle-class people simultaneously being workers who can strike intrigues me.

 

[JimW]

There's no point, you try and try to explain the inquities of estate tax and the crippling cost of school fees, domestic staff and even a small string of polo ponies these days but they just can't see it.

 

[chilango]

No, I think rather than writing off an entire swathe of people; you might want to change your thread title to
Is it worth arguing politics with some particular middle-class people, you know, the bastard ones?

You're probably right.

However, I often think agreeing with nice m/c people is equally pointless as far as changing anything goes.

 

[Cid]

That maybe so.

The idea of however middle-class people simultaneously being workers who can strike intrigues me.

If you want to take m/c as meaning those who have control of labour/derive their income from labour of others, fine. But that isn't really how we use m/c these days is it?

 

[Pickman's model]

Yeah.

Its not the disagreement per se, that's not exclusive to m/c types, its the pointlessness of "winning".

it's not the winning tho, it's the taking part

 

[chilango]

If you want to take m/c as meaning those who have control of labour/derive their income from labour of others, fine. But that isn't really how we use m/c these days is it?

I tend to (or in that ballpark anyway)

Otherwise almost everyone is m/c and it becomes meaningless.

 

[krtek a houby]

That maybe so.

The idea of however middle-class people simultaneously being workers who can strike intrigues me.

People have principles. Or at least, most of the union members I knew had principles. And we came from all walks of life, all across the social strata, if you like. And there were a lot of different politics and belief systems at play but we were always ready to strike, if we had to.

 

[Pickman's model]

That maybe so.

The idea of however middle-class people simultaneously being workers who can strike intrigues me.

i don't know why. haven't you paid attention to e.g. lecturers' strikes and industrial action over the years?

 

[IC3D]

Putting people in boxes isn't always the great model for debate it's cracked up to be I find.

 

[J Ed]

I've encountered lots of people over the years who think they're 'right on' yet supporting strike action (especially tube workers) and even junior doctors seems to bring out the right wing tendencies in abundance.

The middle-class person who I mentioned above parroted every single right-wing trope about unions generally and repeated the gov talking points on the strike and yet she is (or at least was until recently) a Green Party member. I think she is probably a good example of what you mention.

 

[Pickman's model]

Putting people in boxes isn't always the great model for debate it's cracked up to be I find.

i don't know, sometimes it has its attractions

 

[IC3D]

Some sort of Avocado based pestilence to fall on them would be preferential in Chillango's head if seems

 

[Pickman's model]

Some sort of Avocado based pestilence to fall on them would be preferential in Chillango's head if seems

you have to be careful with avocados as so many of them emanate from the zionist entity.

 

[Manter]

I've only (knowingly) met two people in person who were against the doctors' strike, one of which was middle-class the other one was working-class. In this situation I wouldn't be able to stop myself from arguing regardless of whether it was productive or worth it or whatever

I was going to say something similar. I am amazed OP managed to find a group of people who weren't completely supportive of the doctors tbh.

 

[seventh bullet]

Has the OP ever argued with proles before, as well? Not the middle class 'Ah, but my relation to the MoP says I am a prole' posho types you get.

 

[chilango]

i don't know why. haven't you paid attention to e.g. lecturers' strikes and industrial action over the years?

Oh I have. It still intrigues me. Its interesting. And may (or may not) illustrate the complexities of the forms of class struggle in the C21st.

 

[seventh bullet]

They don't like to be paid back in their own coin.

No you don't. I have noticed that.

 

[chilango]

Putting people in boxes isn't always the great model for debate it's cracked up to be I find.

Yeah, we're all individuals maan.

 

[Idris2002]

No you don't. I have noticed that.

Excuse me, I have to go and apply cold water to the burned area.

 

[chilango]

Has the OP ever argued with proles before, as well? Not the middle class 'Ah, but my relation to the MoP says I am a prole' posho types you get.

Yes.

 

[tim]

you have to be careful with avocados as so many of them emanate from the zionist entity.

And often from the provinces of Judea and Samaria.

 

[seventh bullet]

Oh I have. It still intrigues me. Its interesting. And may (or may not) illustrate the complexities of the forms of class struggle in the C21st.

Join the shift with me. It'd scare student lefties. These are the complex places arguments have to be made, though, if the 'left' is to be relevant again.