Is it unethical to use Amazon?

[Argonia]

Nice to see "I don't give a shit" is winning. Good old Urban hive mind.

 

[dessiato]

I use Amazon to get stuff that I can’t otherwise get here

 

[Elpenor]

I try and avoid it where possible. I’ve used it only once this year.

I don’t like online shopping anyway - I like to see and feel things before buying them. Also get “delivery anxiety” about not hearing door etc - and normally I’m at work anyway. I have friends who are constantly ordering things online (internet beer etc) and I would find it exhausting with so many deliveries.

plus Jeff Bezos is a proto-Bond villain, not as bad as Musk but close

That said I will take out a prime membership for when they have live rugby like last autumn

 

[MrSki]

I've never bought anything from Amazon, ever. I regard them as a web based Sports Direct, and I don't buy anything from that bunch of cunts either...

Like you I have managed to get to a ripe old age without ever using amazon. Hopefully I will manage to get through the rest of my life without using them too.

Big up the non-Amazon peeps.

 

[Kanda]

If you boycott Amazon you also boycott all the small businesses selling through them. They're a logistics company.

What I fucking hate is when people order 25kg of cat food or multipacks of water and they insist on it being delivered to their doorway on the 4th floor with no lift. Cunts

 

[cybershot]

If you boycott Amazon you also boycott all the small businesses selling through them. They're a logistics company.

Not to mention all the websites that use AWS as it's backend, and sports that use AWS for it's analytical data.

 

[l'Otters]

If you boycott Amazon you also boycott all the small businesses selling through them. They're a logistics company.

One of the tips I’ve seen for finding alternatives to using Amazon is looking up the seller and finding their non-Amazon outlet and buying from the small business directly.

 

[l'Otters]

I'd be wary of using such an example to be honest, as you don't know the situation of every disabled person out there.

And we are unlikely to find out how exactly much direct damage Amazon’s treatment of its workers does. Two unknowns.
I’m curious what the “harm” is going to be for someone to not use Amazon tbh.

 

[Pickman's model]

If you boycott Amazon you also boycott all the small businesses selling through them. They're a logistics company.

What I fucking hate is when people order 25kg of cat food or multipacks of water and they insist on it being delivered to their doorway on the 4th floor with no lift. Cunts

one weird trick is to use sites like bookfinder.com for your rarer books: which does contain links to amazon and abebooks but others besides - and https://uk.bookshop.org/ for your more common books

 

[Pickman's model]

And we are unlikely to find out how exactly much direct damage Amazon’s treatment of its workers does. Two unknowns.
I’m curious what the “harm” is going to be for someone to not use Amazon tbh.

yeh but they're known unknowns - we know that we do not know this

 

[mauvais]

Of course it's unethical. But there's no such thing as ethical consumerism, and there's no avoiding consumerism in modern life either. Individual behaviour like boycotts or purchasing choices is so far down the list of relevant actions that it's often not worth bothering, like shouting at the incoming tide.

If you really want to achieve something you ought to [redacted] a whole string of their distribution centres, or see what you can do to sabotage Jeffrey [redacted]'s little trip into space.

 

[Argonia]

Has Redacted done the Yuri Gagarin yet?

 

[BillRiver]

Of course it's unethical. But there's no such thing as ethical consumerism, and there's no avoiding consumerism in modern life either. Individual behaviour like boycotts or purchasing choices is so far down the list of relevant actions that it's often not worth bothering, like shouting at the incoming tide.

Individual boycotts are useless, it's true.

But when there's an organised mass boycott (like there is for Amazon) it can be powerful. And if you break such a boycott, you are a scab. Just like crossing a picket line.

 

[danny la rouge]

“Is it unethical to do x?”

This is by definition a backwards way to look at things. Who is defining ethical, who is defining unethical, how does that compare with the other choices we have? So, not only are you being prescriptive about that one choice, you are making a judgement about the choices you take instead. It presumes that it is possible to make an ethical choice from within the capitalist system. I’m not so sure that’s a helpful way of looking at things.

It’s reasonable enough to make a call on the practices of Amazon. The experiences of workers have been documented. The company’s tax behaviour has been documented. The effect of its aggressive tactics on the market for almost every product on the market has been documented. The astonishing wealth of Jeff Bezos was made on the back of all this. These factors will leave anyone with any decency with a negative attitude towards Amazon.

But then don’t we have a negative attitude towards capitalism? How do we know, for example, that the radical bookshop you choose to use instead doesn’t have shitty working conditions and pay? Even cooperatives? My daughter used to work for John Lewis and despite being called a “partner” had a pretty torrid time.

Has the workforce of Amazon called for a boycott? If so, support that call. Obviously don’t scab. But I am not aware of such a call. It’s important to be aware that boycotts are a form of action. I observe boycotts. I boycott the Sun. I boycott Israeli goods. But I’m under no illusion that buying a different newspaper is therefore ethical, or that the avocadoes I buy instead of Israeli ones have been grown and distributed by a worker-managed idyll. We still live in a capitalist system.

So, unless the workforce asks us to boycott Amazon, the question is not “is it unethical to use Amazon?” The question is “is this a behaviour I choose?” It is a personal choice. There’s nothing revolutionary about using Bookshop.org instead of Amazon. It’s a fundamentally liberal way of looking at consumer choice.

 

[Argonia]

“Is it unethical to do x?”

This is by definition a backwards way to look at things. Who is defining ethical, who is defining unethical, how does that compare with the other choices we have? So, not only are you being prescriptive about that one choice, you are making a judgement about the choices you take instead. It presumes that it is possible to make an ethical choice from within the capitalist system. I’m not so sure that’s a helpful way of looking at things.

It’s reasonable enough to make a call on the practices of Amazon. The experiences of workers have been documented. The company’s tax behaviour has been documented. The effect of its aggressive tactics on the market for almost every product on the market has been documented. The astonishing wealth of Jeff Bezos was made on the back of all this. These factors will leave anyone with any decency with a negative attitude towards Amazon.

But then don’t we have a negative attitude towards capitalism? How do we know, for example, that the radical bookshop you choose to use instead doesn’t have shitty working conditions and pay? Even cooperatives? My daughter used to work for John Lewis and despite being called a “partner” had a pretty torrid time.

Has the workforce of Amazon called for a boycott? If so, support that call. Obviously don’t scab. But I am not aware of such a call. It’s important to be aware that boycotts are a form of action. I observe boycotts. I boycott the Sun. I boycott Israeli goods. But I’m under no illusion that buying a different newspaper is therefore ethical, or that the avocadoes I buy instead of Israeli ones have been grown and distributed by a worker-managed idyll. We still live in a capitalist system.

So, unless the workforce asks us to boycott Amazon, the question is not “is it unethical to use Amazon?” The question is “is this a behaviour I choose?” It is a personal choice. There’s nothing revolutionary about using Bookshop.org instead of Amazon. It’s a fundamentally liberal way of looking at consumer choice.

The Sun, thanks the heavens, is going the way of Myspace. It's a Cretaceous era publication lost and adrift in a 21st century world.

 

[farmerbarleymow]

And we are unlikely to find out how exactly much direct damage Amazon’s treatment of its workers does. Two unknowns.
I’m curious what the “harm” is going to be for someone to not use Amazon tbh.

If disabled people want to use such services they can and it isn't anyone else's business.

 

[Pickman's model]

The Sun, thanks the heavens, is going the way of Myspace. It's a Cretaceous era publication lost and adrift in a 21st century world.

we are all lost and adrift in this 21st century world

 

[Pickman's model]

“Is it unethical to do x?”

This is by definition a backwards way to look at things. Who is defining ethical, who is defining unethical, how does that compare with the other choices we have? So, not only are you being prescriptive about that one choice, you are making a judgement about the choices you take instead. It presumes that it is possible to make an ethical choice from within the capitalist system. I’m not so sure that’s a helpful way of looking at things.

It’s reasonable enough to make a call on the practices of Amazon. The experiences of workers have been documented. The company’s tax behaviour has been documented. The effect of its aggressive tactics on the market for almost every product on the market has been documented. The astonishing wealth of Jeff Bezos was made on the back of all this. These factors will leave anyone with any decency with a negative attitude towards Amazon.

But then don’t we have a negative attitude towards capitalism? How do we know, for example, that the radical bookshop you choose to use instead doesn’t have shitty working conditions and pay? Even cooperatives? My daughter used to work for John Lewis and despite being called a “partner” had a pretty torrid time.

Has the workforce of Amazon called for a boycott? If so, support that call. Obviously don’t scab. But I am not aware of such a call. It’s important to be aware that boycotts are a form of action. I observe boycotts. I boycott the Sun. I boycott Israeli goods. But I’m under no illusion that buying a different newspaper is therefore ethical, or that the avocadoes I buy instead of Israeli ones have been grown and distributed by a worker-managed idyll. We still live in a capitalist system.

So, unless the workforce asks us to boycott Amazon, the question is not “is it unethical to use Amazon?” The question is “is this a behaviour I choose?” It is a personal choice. There’s nothing revolutionary about using Bookshop.org instead of Amazon. It’s a fundamentally liberal way of looking at consumer choice.

a radical bookshop not a hundred miles from where i type had absolutely abysmal practices - they called in the assistance of a company offering advice on how to sack people legally but the management were so shit (as well as being such shits) that they left documents lying round after management meetings and emailed the employee they wished to dismiss in error for the company whose services they'd engaged. so yeh just because a bookshop offers radical texts for sale doesn't mean the bosses aren't real scum.

 

[Mrs Miggins]

This is quite a difficult one. I am finding myself in a position where I just can't argue with being able to order groceries via Amazon and have them delivered the same day or the next day. The supermarkets and Ocado just can't do it and since COVID, it's impossible to get any kind of delivery slot with any of them anyway. I don't really want to go to the supermarket - again, because COVID - so really, what Amazon provide here is absolutely brilliant.

 

[strung out]

I use Amazon, because there are lots of things I can't afford not to buy through them.

Also, like it or not, we all use Amazon. If you use Netflix, Facebook, the BBC website/iPlayer, Twitter, or any of the organisations listed below, then you're using Amazon. It's just not possible to effectively boycott them.

Aon, Adobe, Airbnb, Alcatel-Lucent, AOL, Acquia, AdRoll, AEG, Alert Logic, Autodesk, Bitdefender, BMW, British Gas, Baidu, Bristol-Myers Squibb, Canon, Capital One, Channel 4, Chef, Citrix, Coinbase, Comcast, Coursera, Disney, Docker, Dow Jones, European Space Agency, ESPN, Expedia, Financial Times, FINRA, General Electric, GoSquared, Guardian News & Media, Harvard Medical School, Hearst Corporation, Hitachi, HTC, IMDb, International Centre for Radio Astronomy Research, International Civil Aviation Organization, ITV, iZettle, Johnson & Johnson, JustGiving, JWT, Kaplan, Kellogg’s, Lamborghini, Lonely Planet, Lyft, Made.com, McDonalds, NASA, NASDAQ OMX, National Rail Enquiries, National Trust, Netflix, News International, News UK, Nokia, Nordstrom, Novartis, Pfizer, Philips, Pinterest, Quantas, Reddit, Sage, Samsung, SAP, Schneider Electric, Scribd, Securitas Direct, Siemens, Slack, Sony, SoundCloud, Spotify, Square Enix, Tata Motors, The Weather Company, Twitch, Turner Broadcasting,Ticketmaster, Time Inc., Trainline, Ubisoft, UCAS, Unilever, US Department of State, USDA Food and Nutrition Service, UK Ministry of Justice, Vodafone Italy, WeTransfer, WIX, Xiaomi, Yelp, Zynga and Zillow.

Edit: not an exhaustive list, obviously.

 

[strung out]

Also, my wife earns her living through an Amazon owned company (Twitch). I guess if she or her audience wanted to boycott Amazon then they could go to YouTube or Facebook's streaming platforms, but would they really be much better?

 

[l'Otters]

If disabled people want to use such services they can and it isn't anyone else's business.

We’re talking about whether it’s ethical, not whether we can do anything about what other people choose to do. The whole thread (and plenty other threads on urban for that matter) is no one else’s business.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Funny how this was started back when Amazon just sold books. Seems like another world.

 

[Chilli.s]

I use Amazon, I'm not proud of this. Somethings I need for work are only available with the speed and convenience that they offer. People I know use it to sell their own produce. Saying that I'm unethical is a bit rich, I'm not responsible for setting tax laws and enforcing them, I'm not responsible for workers rights enforcement. Yes I see they are wrong in loads of ways but my actions have an impact on me more than they do to them.

Saying boycott amazon is like trying to boycott capitalism.

 

[hash tag]

Another way of looking at things could be are Amazon a disability friendly employer. I suppose it's a question that answers itself .... ‘I'm not a robot’: Amazon workers condemn unsafe, grueling conditions at warehouse

 

[MickiQ]

Funny how this was started back when Amazon just sold books. Seems like another world.

Boycott not been very effective then, If workers conditions are to improve at Amazon, then there is one way and one way only. That is for the Amazon workforce to unionise and demand changes by taking industrial action. Any talk of boycotts or public pressure is very largely a gesture.

 

[maomao]

I use Amazon cause I'm skint and they're cheap. Don't see why my family should have to give up the odd treat we manage. If Amazon workers called for a boycott I might think about it but to my knowledge they haven't.

 

[mauvais]

They sold a lot more than books by 2005. Apparently I was buying CDs, games and a DSLR.

 

[farmerbarleymow]

We’re talking about whether it’s ethical, not whether we can do anything about what other people choose to do. The whole thread (and plenty other threads on urban for that matter) is no one else’s business.

Maybe, but the way you couched your first post comparing relative harms comes across as a bit shitty, when you're talking about disabled people who already have to deal with plenty of shit in daily life.

 

[BillRiver]

Maybe, but the way you couched your first post comparing relative harms comes across as a bit shitty, when you're talking about disabled people who already have to deal with plenty of shit in daily life.

I'm disabled, so are lots of my friends.

The last thing we want or need is pity or to be patronised.

We're just as able as anyone else is to organise ourselves so we don't have to do last minute shopping, and to choose where to shop according to our ethics.

One of my friends, who is disabled, worked for Amazon at one point. She's the loudest voice I know of, calling for us all to boycott them.