Is it true that "no one wants" car free towns?

[_angel_]

With good public transport and facilities you could drastically reduce the needs for cars within a town. For those who want them for long distance, perhaps there could even be a car depot where you could keep your car.

And (god forbid!) people might start doing smaller, more regular shops in local shops and markets. Oooo, the horror....

My local morries is ten minute walk away but I can't carry all the shopping home. And I'm not making more trips to that sodding depressing shittip than I have to!

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

People managed to exist without big supermarkets not so long ago.

Yes, and in those days, you could smoke in a pub. I seem to recall that London has experienced killer smogs in the past, and generally worse pollution than you experience today. I'm sure part of that related to the use of coal for energy, but probably all those lorries going to all those markets didn't help matters. Modern cars produce a fraction of the pollutants emitted by those vehicles. It's just that no one cared back then, and no one studied it.

 

[jæd]

People managed to exist without big supermarkets not so long ago. And I manage to exist without doing big shops because the nearby facilities are good. Improve people's nearby facilities, and I reckon it's much more feasible than JC2 and Jaed seem to think. Yes you might have to do smaller shops twice a week, but if they're 5 mins away, is that really a problem for people without mobility problems?

One solution would be for an increase in home-delivery. Although that would Tesco's actually sending me the items I wanted...

 

[_angel_]

People managed to exist without big supermarkets not so long ago. And I manage to exist without doing big shops because the nearby facilities are good. Improve people's nearby facilities, and I reckon it's much more feasible than JC2 and Jaed seem to think. Yes you might have to do smaller shops twice a week, but if they're 5 mins away, is that really a problem for people without mobility problems?

You don't have children to shop for either. Believe me, my weekly shop can't be carried home in a rucksack the way maybe it could have been done when I was single.

If you were to talk of relying on 'local' shops rather than supermarket there would be no fruit, veg, decent bread or anything around here.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

People managed to exist without big supermarkets not so long ago. And I manage to exist without doing big shops because the nearby facilities are good. Improve people's nearby facilities, and I reckon it's much more feasible than JC2 and Jaed seem to think. Yes you might have to do smaller shops twice a week, but if they're 5 mins away, is that really a problem for people without mobility problems?

I don't think that a reduction of car usage is a bad thing. They are building a transit line about three blocks from my house, and once it's in, I will rarely drive for anything other than shopping, weekend use, etc.


I'm also in favor of reintroducing the neighborhood, or the town concept, to modern urban living. This is more of an issue here than there, with our immense urban sprawl.

However, I don't think that a totally car free existence is possible for urban dwellers in our current megacities. The distances are too great.

 

[rover07]

The houses should be built with gardens big enough for a vegetable plot and fruit trees. Then there would be less need to go shopping.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

One solution would be for an increase in home-delivery.

Is the delivery person going to push a hand cart?

Because if he's going to drive, I might as well drive there myself, and make sure that the ice cream isn't melted when it gets to my house.

 

[co-op]

Totalitarian imposition? A little given to hyperbole, are you not? A degree of social engineering in favour of the car over the last half-century, yes, coupled with people's willingness to ignore its downsides and embrace its advantages a bit too willingly, but calling it 'totalitarian' is stretching a point to ... well, breaking point.

Yes, "totalitarian" was a little rhetorical, nothing to be alarmed about .

The point is that at the moment I am not allowed to live anywhere that isn't utterly car dominated, unless I go and live in a cave in Scotland or whatever. Since so much of pro-car rhetoric is about "choice" and "freedom" I find that a little ironic.

 

[rover07]

Could be a horse-drawn delivery service.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Could be a horse-drawn delivery service.

The ice cream will be melted for sure.

 

[rover07]

The ice cream will be melted for sure.

OK ....how about an ice-box on the cart

 

[jæd]

Yes, "totalitarian" was a little rhetorical, nothing to be alarmed about .

The point is that at the moment I am not allowed to live anywhere that isn't utterly car dominated, unless I go and live in a cave in Scotland or whatever. Since so much of pro-car rhetoric is about "choice" and "freedom" I find that a little ironic.

Incorrect. I have many friends in London who don't have cars and haven't driven for years...

 

[co-op]

* Buses : Not enough routes and the service isn't frequent enough
* Trains : Same as above, but more pricey
* Coaches : Cheaper, but less routes
* Bike : Only useful over small areas.

(And what will you do about large purchases from shops. How will people do the fortnightly shop at Tescos)

Well here's the strange thing - I've never had a car (well once for about 9 months, back in the early 90s). And it's never stopped me getting anywhere I want to - which is quite a lot of places, quite often. Why should it be so easy for me and so impossible for you or anyone else?

It sounds sometimes to me as though some people are unable to go places without their car. I have certainly known at least a couple of people who were functional agoraphobics, but were able to conceal that by car-use. But no car, no going out.

"Fortnightly shopping" for food makes me shudder a bit. My only real exposure to the Fortnightly-Shopping World was when I used to be a landscape gardener and we'd do rich houses in London suburbs. Usually it seemed that people would put in the Dream Kitchen and then look out the window and feel dissatisfied with the garden and get someone in to Do It. This was a pain in the arse as we'd have to barrow in our kit past their £5,000 brushed metal Neff fridge or whatever - risky business. Anyway, they were usually nice folk, "help yourself to whatever's in the fridge, tea, coffee, biscuits etc". These fridges were weird. They were the size of a wardrobe, and crammed. It could take 5 minutes unpacking to actually find what you were looking for - some exotic like 'butter' or 'the milk'...What you'd find were literally rotting lettuces (your classic aspirational supermarket buy, never going to be eaten, just bought to justify or validate your yoghurt-and-ham snackystuff), stuff months past use-by dates, leftovers with mould growing on them...really quite disgusting. If you're used to a clean fridge, you could smell it the moment you opened them. These people seemed like real supermarket junkies to me. Eating shit, buying the picture on the packet, buying to make themselves feel happy, getting overweight, driving miles to do it....it it not a persuasive reason for car-life to me. If you have to carry your stuff home, you tend not to buy impulsively and hence buy whatever rubbish supermarkets are manipulating you into "wanting".

Anyway. Anecdotal evidence, eh? Nothing like it.

Tescos = hell. What's really odd is that, having turned shopping for food into a nightmare experience, supermarkets now promise to relieve you of that nightmare by letting you go just once a fortnight...surreal.

 

[co-op]

Incorrect. I have many friends in London who don't have cars and haven't driven for years...

Non sequitur.

 

[untethered]

The point is that at the moment I am not allowed to live anywhere that isn't utterly car dominated, unless I go and live in a cave in Scotland or whatever. Since so much of pro-car rhetoric is about "choice" and "freedom" I find that a little ironic.

Indeed. It is choice and freedom for some and at the expense of choice and freedom for others.

 

[co-op]

The ice cream will be melted for sure.

Ice cream lasts hours before melting. It's more likely to melt in a heated metal box with an engine at one end than on the back of my bike..

 

[Psychonaut]

If you only shop every 14 days, wouldnt your bananas oxidise & your celery go all floppy?

 

[Brainaddict]

As soulman and chymera have already pointed out, car free towns might be feasible if you're able-bodied but they're not so great for people with disabilities.

Fine, provide mobility scooters on loan, but then you can't park them securely, and the smaller shops won't let you use one inside.

Then there's the problem of getting yourself as far as the *cripcart* (whether powered chair or mobility scooter) - they aren't easily heaved up a couple of steps and parked in a hallway. You know how people grumble about folding and carrying buggies? A *cripcart* is a lot heavier than that, and it probably won't fold (unless you run over it with a lorry).

Okay, so maybe you get a taxi or a lift in a car. You've still got to get to them, and have the energy to get from where they're allowed to drop you back to your front door afterwards. Even a relatively short distance of a couple of hundred yards can be enough to make it impossible.

The pedestrianised area is protected by electronically raised/lowered bollards that can be passed by swipecard. Give swipecards to delivery drivers, disabled drivers etc, and set a 10mph speed limit for these few vehicles that need to drive in the pedestrian zone.

You see problems. I see solutions

 

[Leafster]

Well here's the strange thing - I've never had a car (well once for about 9 months, back in the early 90s). And it's never stopped me getting anywhere I want to - which is quite a lot of places, quite often. Why should it be so easy for me and so impossible for you or anyone else?
<snip>

I think it depends on where you want to go and how quickly you want to get there. My elderly mother lives in village in Sussex (not exactly in the middle of nowhere) and I try to visit her once a week on a Sunday. If I didn't use my car I'd have to take a train and then a bus and then walk. The trains only run every half hour and I'm not sure how frequently the buses run at the other end. This would take two to three times longer than it does in the car. When I got there I wouldn't be able to take her out for lunch as there would be no means of getting her anywhere that served food.

I do try to limit the use of my car. I made the decision to work from home to avoid a "commute" which seemed pointless when most of my work can be done from a desk anywhere. (This more or less halved the annual mileage I do) However, I do need to visit my clients from time to time and although some of them are easily accessible by train, not all of them are, so in order to do my work efficiently I drive to some of them.

This is only my personal experience and is formed because of the way I live my life. Others may be able to avoid car use altogether but that doesn't mean it's possible for all of us.

I think the wider problem is that so many of us have to travel greater distances to do anything, whether that's to work, socialise or obtain services like health care, food etc. Perhaps that's what should be addressed before trying to implement large-scale car free zones. If people had to travel less then car usage would be less of the problem that it is now.

 

[co-op]

This is only my personal experience and is formed because of the way I live my life. Others may be able to avoid car use altogether but that doesn't mean it's possible for all of us.

I think the wider problem is that so many of us have to travel greater distances to do anything, whether that's to work, socialise or obtain services like health care, food etc. Perhaps that's what should be addressed before trying to implement large-scale car free zones. If people had to travel less then car usage would be less of the problem that it is now.

I completely get this point. My OP was to call for a little support for the idea of at least a few car-free towns to offer an alternative to our present petrolhead's-delight monoculture.

I can see that for many people car-freedom is just a daydream (or a nightmare for those who have become over-attached ).

It is of course chicken and egg anyway. People "can't" live without their cars because of the sort of reasons you have posted (I don't question them, they sound utterly valid). But the "reasons" have been created by virtue of the fact that everyone drives and thus creates a need for the car. Alternatives, or services which depend on alternatives (eg local shops etc) are annihilated and thus we end up with no choice.

In your case I'd suggest taking a bike on the train and cycling the last bit but I know from personal experience that Sussex roads and lanes are not cycle-safe because of the speeds drivers take them at.

How do we break this chain? And can we at least be permitted to try it in these supposed "ecotowns"?

 

[jæd]

It sounds sometimes to me as though some people are unable to go places without their car. I have certainly known at least a couple of people who were functional agoraphobics, but were able to conceal that by car-use. But no car, no going out.

And how do you work that out...? Again, I know plenty of people who have cars in London, but are completely capable of going out without them.//

Tescos = hell. What's really odd is that, having turned shopping for food into a nightmare experience, supermarkets now promise to relieve you of that nightmare by letting you go just once a fortnight...surreal.

Incorrect. For you it might be. For me its fine... Try going at off peak hours.

If you stop generalising, and telling us how everyone should live, you might get further...

 

[jæd]

I completely get this point. My OP was to call for a little support for the idea of at least a few car-free towns to offer an alternative to our present petrolhead's-delight monoculture.

But it isn't a "monoculture" unless you want to generalise... Plenty of people get around fine without cars...

Non sequitur.

 

[fredfelt]

You don't have children to shop for either. Believe me, my weekly shop can't be carried home in a rucksack the way maybe it could have been done when I was single.

If you were to talk of relying on 'local' shops rather than supermarket there would be no fruit, veg, decent bread or anything around here.

That's fine then. If there were such a thing as 'car free towns' then don't live in them if it doesn't suit. It's quite simple really.

 

[Brainaddict]

Perhaps that's what should be addressed before trying to implement large-scale car free zones. If people had to travel less then car usage would be less of the problem that it is now.

I do think if a largely pedestrianised zone is very large then there should be at least a few buses running through it (so okay, it's not completely pedestrianised, but mostly).

So I give you...park and ride!

The solutions man

 

[ChrisFilter]

Car free roads in London would be cool, or at least proper dual-carriage cycle lanes.

 

[fredfelt]

Park and ride. But in reverse. There's a car lot at the edge of the housing. This area you have your car pool, or maybe even your private vehicle parked. Secure parking for bikes and any disabled carrages, including three wheeled bikes, are at the centre of your community with space to park your bike next to your car.

With someting like 50% of all car journies being under a mile this cuts out lots of uncecessary car travel. Then immediatley in terms of polution and RTA's your kids are safe to play in the streets.

This way the best locations can be used for people to live in, and more undesirable locations can be used for cars. It seems that there are massive savings to be had in terms of land usage (use space more efficiently) and urban design (it's very expensive to cater for cars opposed to walking / cycling).

As streets are car free it's a pleasure to get to your local shops, so you willn't miss you car at all.

 

[co-op]

Park and ride. But in reverse. There's a car lot at the edge of the housing. This area you have your car pool, or maybe even your private vehicle parked. Secure parking for bikes and any disabled carrages, including three wheeled bikes, are at the centre of your community with space to park your bike next to your car.

.

I think this is what they are doing in this Vauban place near Freiberg in Germany but I haven't been to visit yet.

When I did have a car for a short time many years ago, I only ended up using it to go out of London to visit people at the w/e and I ended up thinking that what I really wanted was a little parking space a nice walk from a railway station just outside the M25 somewhere accessible from Clapham Junction.

My heart used to sink at the thought of the Stockwell > to the outskirts bit of the journey, even on a good day it would take an hour, and as for coming back in on Sunday, what a mare. I ended up doing the journeys at midnight just to skip the traffic, but it's a stupid way to live.

 

[co-op]

And how do you work that out...? Again, I know plenty of people who have cars in London, but are completely capable of going out without them.//

That's another non sequitur!

It literally doesn't follow from what I said...the fact that (as I said) some people conceal their agoraphobia by using their cars, doesn't mean that everyone does. It's a non-point. I wouldn't disagree with what you have said above, would anyone disagree with it? It seems like the bleedin' obvious?

Ditto the previous one (non s) - haven't got time to go into that one, work is calling...

 

[Crispy]

Ok, people seem to be confusing taking away cars from exisitng, car-oriented towns, with creating entirely new towns that are designed to be used without a car.

It's perfectly possible. It requires a certain density, and a different approach to zoning - mixed housing/shopping and commercial. There is no reason why everyone in one of these towns can't live less than 5 minutes walk from everything they need on a regular basis. For longer journeys, rentable electric cars and
public transport can get you around. If you start from the premise that the private car is not needed, everything else can change.

Everyone on this who is arguing that this won't work for them - they are right. Nearly every town and suburb in the country is designed for the car, and you couldn't take it away without breaking essential systems. Which is why this sort of living requires wholesale rethinking of the design and layout of towns. If these pilot projects can prove the iea, then we can start to rebuild and change our existing towns and cities.

 

[jæd]

Ok, people seem to be confusing taking away cars from exisitng, car-oriented towns, with creating entirely new towns that are designed to be used without a car.

It's perfectly possible. It requires a certain density, and a different approach to zoning - mixed housing/shopping and commercial. There is no reason why everyone in one of these towns can't live less than 5 minutes walk from everything they need on a regular basis. For longer journeys, rentable electric cars and
pulbic transport can get you around. If you start from the premise that the private car is not needed, everything else can change.

Its possible but unlikely in the foreseeable future, unless (as stated before) there's a complete change in thinking by the Govt, and by people...