Is it time to build a memorial to the victims of the British Empire?

[untethered]

You don't have to no. You don't need some daft monument that will be recuperated by the current ruling class to portray themselves as different to all that old stuff to argue what was wrong with the empire.

Such as the Nelson Mandela statue in Parliament Square?

 

[untethered]

Not really.

Yes it does. Fact.

Exhibit A: This thread.

 

[CharlieAddict]

Okay, let's just tick along with this view of the great benevolent empire shall we?

why not?

all empires are built on the butchering and exploitation of 'others.'
what makes the british empire so different?

 

[butchersapron]

Such as the Nelson Mandela statue in Parliament Square?

I don't follow.

You were a hang mandela type in the 80s i thought anyway? Conservative students?

 

[London_Calling]

all empires are built on the butchering and exploitation of 'others.'
what makes the british empire so different?

Because the GCSE syllabus, the British film industry and the BBC don't say it is. Okay?

 

[bluestreak]

What books that mate?

niall ferguson's 'empire: how britain made the modern world'. i was surprised actually, cos it was recommended to me and i thought, oh god, not some daily mail pop history aren't-we-great tome, but it's a good little read so far.

 

[likesfish]

excellent build it on the sandwich islands whose entire inhabitants were killed in the pursuit of profit

 

[Xanadu]

A similar idea to the museum in Berlin about the holocaust?

 

[Roadkill]

This country already suffers from far too much post-colonial guilt. There is plenty in Britain - past and present - of which to be proud. I can see little purpose being served by a doubtless mawkish monument of national self-flagellation.

That sounds suspiciously like an argument for airbrushing all of the bad bits of the empire out, and presenting it as just a gentle, consensual exercise in good government.

Never mind the victims of the Mau-Mau rebellion, the Indian Mutiny and the like. They don't matter, eh?

 

[Belushi]

Because the GCSE syllabus and the BBC don't say it is. Okay?

Really, I cant recall ever seeing a pro-Empire programme on the Beeb, and I'm pretty sure there's nothing pro-empire in the GCSE syllabus, but I'm happy to be corrected.

 

[Firky]

Memorials are built usually to celebrate good things they've done or to commemorate bad things that have happened to them. It's not usual to build "apologetic" memorials.

This country already suffers from far too much post-colonial guilt. There is plenty in Britain - past and present - of which to be proud.

Why would you feel proud of it?

 

[Roadkill]

niall ferguson's 'empire: how britain made the modern world'. i was surprised actually, cos it was recommended to me and i thought, oh god, not some daily mail pop history aren't-we-great tome, but it's a good little read so far.

It's fucking rubbish IMO.

 

[untethered]

why not?

all empires are built on the butchering and exploitation of 'others.'
what makes the british empire so different?

Hardly. While the British Empire started as a purely commercial venture, by the Victorian era it was clear that it was intended to civilise, evangelise and bring nations together as they had not been before. This continued into the 20th century. While there were many less noble events in a history spanning several hundred years and a large proportion of the world's population, the fault of the British, such as we may judge it now, lies in failing to communicate effectively the benefits of the enterprise and thus gaining the natives' support.

 

[Belushi]

niall ferguson's 'empire: how britain made the modern world'. i was surprised actually, cos it was recommended to me and i thought, oh god, not some daily mail pop history aren't-we-great tome, but it's a good little read so far.

Ah yes, I've read it. Didnt agree with a lot of it but some interesting stuff, esp. from the economic side of things.

Another interesting 'revisionist' read is 'Ornamentalism' (cant remember the author).

 

[untethered]

Why would you feel proud of it?

I'm proud of modern day Britain because it tolerates sites like Urban 75, where ordinary people may voice their concerns no matter how trivial or misguided they may be.

 

[Belushi]

Hardly. While the British Empire started as a purely commercial venture, by the Victorian era it was clear that it was intended to civilise, evangelise and bring nations together as they had not been before. This continued into the 20th century. While there were many less noble events in a history spanning several hundred years and a large proportion of the world's population, the fault of the British, such as we may judge it now, lies in failing to communicate effectively the benefits of the enterprise and thus gaining the natives' support.

FFS, I dont know where to start with this load of bollocks.

 

[Roadkill]

Much as he's a silly old duffer, I think a comment I once saw Felipe Fernandez Amesto make sums it up quite nicely: 'All empires are evil: the best you can say for the British Empire is that it was slightly less evil than many others.'

 

[untethered]

Another interesting 'revisionist' read is 'Ornamentalism' (cant remember the author).

Edward Said's "Orientalism"?

 

[butchersapron]

Edward Said's "Orientalism"?

No

 

[butchersapron]

Hardly. While the British Empire started as a purely commercial venture, by the Victorian era it was clear that it was intended to civilise, evangelise and bring nations together as they had not been before.

 

[goldenecitrone]

It's a bit vague, isn't it? 'victims of the British Empire'. Most European countries could have memorials for their Empires.

 

[Belushi]

Edward Said's "Orientalism"?

No, Ornamentalism, David Cannadine.

Review here http://www.history.ac.uk/ihr/Focus/Empire/reviews/marshall2.html

 

[Belushi]

It's a bit vague, isn't it? 'victims of the British Empire'. Most European countries could have memorials for their Empires.

And many other countries and peoples - Empire was hardly an invention of Europeans.

 

[Dan U]

I want a memorial for the victims of the Viking invasions

@ these threads each and every time they come up on Urban and elsewhere. It's angry politics student territory.

 

[London_Calling]

Really, I cant recall ever seeing a pro-Empire programme on the Beeb, and I'm pretty sure there's nothing pro-empire in the GCSE syllabus, but I'm happy to be corrected.

I'm also absolutely sure you're convinced you haven't.

 

[nino_savatte]

Such as the Nelson Mandela statue in Parliament Square?

Eh? I take it you're one of those who saw Mandela as a "terrorist". I'll bet you also saw Solidarity as a decent trade union...because it was Polish and not British...damn those workers!

 

[zenie]

Really, I cant recall ever seeing a pro-Empire programme on the Beeb, and I'm pretty sure there's nothing pro-empire in the GCSE syllabus, but I'm happy to be corrected.

Hmm..I can remember learning about 'Great Britain' and how 'Great' we were as an Empire etc etc

 

[Belushi]

I'm also absolutely sure you're convinced you haven't.

Why not just provide an example of a pro-Empire programme on the Beeb or of pro-imperial materials in the GCSE syllabus?

 

[zenie]

Why not just provide an example of a pro-Empire programme on the Beeb or of pro-imperial materials in the GCSE syllabus?

When did you leave school because I left in 1999?

 

[butchersapron]

Why not just provide an example of a pro-Empire programme on the Beeb or of pro-imperial materials in the GCSE syllabus?

I'd be shocked if there was anything today. In the past sure, but thigs have changed massively over the last 30 years.