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Is it better to write a good book which doesn't sell or...

Yea or Nay...


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Bad books do get published, albeit rarely. By 'bad' I mean poor quality. I can't think of any right now, though, because it is so rare. Maybe you can think of some?

However, we're talking on this thread about bad books being published and then making lots of money, which I don't think happens.

I would question the OPs whole definition of 'bad' and 'good' - and what it means. Any book which sells millions is a great book - whether it's about a boy and a tiger in a boat, or about three children locked in an attic.

There are plenty of poor quality books which get published - relentless being one, and a really really ghastyl book which is quite possibly the worst book i have ever read, about people who get murdered in a hotel, but i have forgotten the name of. I dont mean anything about the genre stuff either.
 
There are plenty of poor quality books which get published - relentless being one

But Relentless isn't poor quality. It might not have the characterisation you like, and it might not have come to the conclusion you would have come to, but you don't become the best-selling thriller in the UK by being poor quality, I don't think.

Relentless won't change lives, it won't alter the course of literature, - and it never promised it would. It's like saying: 'That Kylie, she's no Mozart, is she?'

No, she's not. But it's a few hours of distraction, and it races along, and it's entertaining and it's bubble gum, and fabulous bubble gum at that.:D

A publisher read that book, thought it would sell, and published it. It was listed on Richard and Judy, and sold lots and lots. So there. Let's not be jealous, the fella's done very well. I wish my novel was published, and it was listed on Richard and Judy, and was about to make me a rich man. But it's not - and while it isn't, we have to put any criticism of Relentless that I might make into that perspective, imo.
 
A bad book wouldn't make money, because no-one would want to read it.

I think the OP's question is based on a rather inaccurate understanding of the writing/publishing process, and also the artistic process.

Consider this: The vast majority of people who start out to write a book fail. Of that tiny minority who succeed, most never get their book seen and accepted by a publisher. Of that minority who do get seen and accepted, most never get stocked and displayed by the mainstream bookshops. Of that minority who do, most never become best-sellers.

So the question should not be whether to write a commercial success, or a slow-burning literery masterpiece, but just to fucking write, and may God's best luck be with you because you'll need it. The idea that the writer has a choice in this is daft.

I imagine that a 'bad book' is not one in which the spelling is appalling, or the plot disappears into nothingness, or the binding doesn't stay true, or the protagonist changes their motivations part way through a propos of nothing; all these inconsistencies would be picked up by editors and printers.

By 'bad book' I imagine you're invoking this rather unfair and snobbish delineation between literary novels (which still in some quarters are seen as 'real writing') and genre fiction such as spy books, or hard-boiled detective stories, or gory horror, or tell-all emotional novels of childhood despair which publish straight into paperback and don't get reviewed on the late night shows from New York and London which we like to watch because they make us feel suitably cultured.

The fact is that genre fiction outsells literary fiction by many orders of magnitude, and it does this because it is supremely GOOD at what it does. It hits exactly the buttons that readers want hitting.

No writer who finishes a novel or any worth (and notice I say, of any worth) can have done so solely with the cynical intention of writing a commercial success. Of course they hope it will be, but first they have to understand the genre, subvert the genre if they wish, and pass muster with all the highly attuned readers of that genre, who won't take any old pap. You cannot fake it, and the idea that you can 'fake write' a sucessful commercial novel, and then turn to 'proper' writing' which doesn't sell as much but which ticks many academic boxes is proposterous. As a myth, it also prevents many good genre writers from feeling proud about the novels they write, when they deserve to feel very proud indeed.

Fantastic fiction is what readers want. If you can write it, and write it supremely well, then you will sell. Millions.

Stephen King is not a literary master. He is no Flaubert, Camus or Dostoevsky - but he his an arch storyteller who kicks arse within his genres. Most writers would kill to be Stephen King, and have his readership. In this competitive, harsh and ultimately unrewarding publishing climate, to separate writers into worthy and unworthy based on elitist assumptions of what makes good or bad art is wholly unfair.

*Glares at everyone, including self*:mad:


You knew what he meant: a formulaic potboiler that could be popular, or the words of your soul set in print.
 
But Relentless isn't poor quality. It might not have the characterisation you like, and it might not have come to the conclusion you would have come to, but you don't become the best-selling thriller in the UK by being poor quality, I don't think.

Relentless won't change lives, it won't alter the course of literature, - and it never promised it would. It's like saying: 'That Kylie, she's no Mozart, is she?'

No, she's not. But it's a few hours of distraction, and it races along, and it's entertaining and it's bubble gum, and fabulous bubble gum at that.:D

A publisher read that book, thought it would sell, and published it. It was listed on Richard and Judy, and sold lots and lots. So there. Let's not be jealous, the fella's done very well. I wish my novel was published, and it was listed on Richard and Judy, and was about to make me a rich man. But it's not - and while it isn't, we have to put any criticism of Relentless that I might make into that perspective, imo.

:D It is such terrible shite though. I'm not saying that people dont have a right to read it, and enjoy it. But fucking hell :D
 
Eh. I thought Saturday was a fantastic bit of writing. Informed, insightful and involving, not least because my dad was in hospital with brain injuries. His observations of London life were spot on imo, many a sentence indicating knowledge subtlety and without judgement

I thought it was OK, but Atonement was a much better book IMO...
 
There are plenty of bad books published that sell a few copies to friends and family and disappear forever. Editors and publishers aren't infallible.

I also think some bad books get by on clever marketing and good will from the reader.
 
Write a bad book that does sell.

youre young dumb and full of cum.:rolleyes:

then at least have some money to give yourself some liberty to free yourself to be your own patron and test your capability to write something that is good, then you'll know if you can.

On the other hand, dont sell out and make no money and sit in squalor wondering all your life where it went wrong.


That's more or less what I was going to say!

If you write a mediocre (according to some) book that sells first, then you've got the money and the opportunity to write a great one.


Oh yeah, and get on the Richard and Judy reading list. Doesn't matter if you're book is total shite, it'll sell millions.
 
Yes it's better to write a good book that doesn't sell. So I could read it. Damn how many sales it's had.

Anyway a good book is always kept. How many of The Da Vinci Code books do you see for sale in second hand book shops now days?

Even though I am guilty of enjoying that one! :hmm::(
 
You knew what he meant: a formulaic potboiler that could be popular, or the words of your soul set in print.

And I'm saying the distinction is bogus; writers don't have the choice. No writer ever said :'Oh, I'll spend a year of my life writing a formulaic potboiler which will sell millions, get me international film rights and set me up for the rest of my natural, then I will hive myself off in my dusty garret and create a fascinating work of indescribable beauty and heart-rending originality and thus satisfy my nobler, artisic streak once my financial needs are met...'

No writer ever said that. No writer has the choice. Even writers who write 'formulaic' genre fiction mean what they write, it is their art, they put their soul into it just as much as Vasquez does into his work.

You aren't a writer JC, and dare I say it I don't think you're much of a reader either. ;) If you were you would know that committing whole years of your life to a novel in a bid to get rich is a silly, silly way to try and get rich. The odds against it are frightening.

If you can write a throw-away potboiler that sells millions, then you have by definition written a brilliant book. I have no time for this snobbishness that separates literary genre fiction from the rest, it's tired, baseless, old-fashioned and anti-writer.
 
If you can write a throw-away potboiler that sells millions, then you have by definition written a brilliant book. I have no time for this snobbishness that separates literary genre fiction from the rest, it's tired, baseless, old-fashioned and anti-writer.


But that doesn't mean that one has to accept that a book sells millions is by definition a good book. As I sci fi obsessive I find the lit snobbiness irritating. That doesn't mean I have to call the Dune prequels good books. They sold a lot, but are just badly written.
 
The mans a godawful hack. I wouldn't really nurse such hatred towards him if he'd just stuck to churning out tv novelisations and his own sub-galactica praxis crap.

But pissing on the memory of Herbert? burn him.
 
But that doesn't mean that one has to accept that a book sells millions is by definition a good book. As I sci fi obsessive I find the lit snobbiness irritating. That doesn't mean I have to call the Dune prequels good books. They sold a lot, but are just badly written.

With any sucessful book, it's possible to write a stinker of a sequel and get sales because of the reputation of the original. But you can only do this once, you cannot do it 5 times. Frank Herbert did it 5 times, he was writing what his audience wanted to read, moving the story on.

I can see that you might not have liked it, but that doesn't make it bad.

Bad books don't sell millions. They really don't.:D
 
With any sucessful book, it's possible to write a stinker of a sequel and get sales because of the reputation of the original. But you can only do this once, you cannot do it 5 times. Frank Herbert did it 5 times, he was writing what his audience wanted to read, moving the story on.

I can see that you might not have liked it, but that doesn't make it bad.

Bad books don't sell millions. They really don't.:D

well, to use a food analogy, mcdonalds meals sell in the billions. Is that good food?

I think it's entirely possible for bad writing to shift millions. And I don't think 'good writing/bad writing' judgements are entirely subjective.
 
With any sucessful book, it's possible to write a stinker of a sequel and get sales because of the reputation of the original. But you can only do this once, you cannot do it 5 times. Frank Herbert did it 5 times, he was writing what his audience wanted to read, moving the story on.

I can see that you might not have liked it, but that doesn't make it bad.

Bad books don't sell millions. They really don't.:D

:D oh dude
 
well, to use a food analogy, mcdonalds meals sell in the billions. Is that good food?

I think it's entirely possible for bad writing to shift millions. And I don't think 'good writing/bad writing' judgements are entirely subjective.

That's a terrible analogy! :D

No McDonalds burger takes years to create, and has to make it through the hoops of reading editors, publishing editors, company directors, market research, librarians and bookshop owners, and finally be dissected word for word in the online, print and media reviews sections on a global scale before finally seeing whether or not the reading public think it's worth buying on a mass scale.

Fiction is all genre - it's just that some is literary genre, and that is deemed by academic snobs to be better than any other, in the same way academic snobs will tell you that opera is better than Stevie Wonder. And which any Stevie Wonder fan will tell you is bollocks.:D
 
That's a terrible analogy! :D

No McDonalds burger takes years to create, and has to make it through the hoops of reading editors, publishing editors, company directors, market research, librarians and bookshop owners, and finally be dissected word for word in the online, print and media reviews sections on a global scale before finally seeing whether or not the reading public think it's worth buying on a mass scale.

Fiction is all genre - it's just that some is literary genre, and that is deemed by academic snobs to be better than any other, in the same way academic snobs will tell you that opera is better than Stevie Wonder. And which any Stevie Wonder fan will tell you is bollocks.:D

But then whats the point of having an opion on anything? Stevie wonder and opera are not proper comparisons, because its a matter of taste ... they are both good in their own way!!

a better comparison would perhaps be Dima Bilan - the guy who just won Eurovision, and, say, KoRn, or DJ Tiesto ... :D you can't say that the first one is of equivalent quality to the other two, can you? :D
 
A bad book wouldn't make money, because no-one would want to read it. ...

Sorry Wookey, but that is nonsense. Are you really trying to suggest that there are no criteria other than sales by which to judge books?

Did you know that Mills and Boon books are written to such a tight formula that characters have to meet in a certain chapter, be overtaken by events in another and get together near the end? A friend of mine looked into writing one out of interest, and it really is that formulaic. Are you really saying that there is as much literary merit in that as Tolstoy?

I like a good potoiler as much as the next man, Alistair MacLean being my author of choice, and I've respect for anyone who can write one. It's a skill I don't have. But it's a rather different endeavour from writing something 'literary.'
 
But then whats the point of having an opion on anything? Stevie wonder and opera are not proper comparisons, because its a matter of taste ... they are both good in their own way!!

a better comparison would perhaps be Dima Bilan - the guy who just won Eurovision, and, say, KoRn, or DJ Tiesto ... :D you can't say that the first one is of equivalent quality to the other two, can you? :D

I don't know Dima Bilan or KoRn or DJ Tiesto, but I have a feeling it doesn't matter.

You are of course allowed your opinion on everything, but it is just an opinion, it doesn't decide the value of anything except to yourself.

I can't stand Eastenders, I don't like the plots, the characters, the acting - I haven't watched it for years. But for the 14million people who watch it every week, it's fucking brilliant, they love it. In the great scheme of global soaps, the quality of Eastenders is undoubtedly very high. In the great scheme of TV programs, it deserves its place in history.

But I can't stand it. It's a waste of my time watching it. It winds me up. And that's probably got something to do with it not being directed at me, not written for me, and not meant to delight me. That's cool.:)

We're getting off the point here, discussing what is good or bad art, and I feel it's a conversation I had when I was about 18. I'm more interested in the idea that the literary genre of the 21st Century still benefits from some misplaced notion that because it's harder to understand, it's therefore more worthy, and more rewarding to the reader when they do understand it.

Books are entertainment, that's all. Some can be throught-provoking too, but hey needn't be. Some can contain exquisitely rendered prose, but they needn't do. Some can create seemingly entirely new genres, and some can represent second-hand ideas throughout, and some can do both - and some can do neither. You take your money and makes your choice.

But the idea that any writer has the power to sit there and write a novel knowing what the public reaction will be is stupid - there are far too many variables. If you finish a novel, get someone to print it, and sell ANY AT ALL then you have done something the vast majority of humans wish they could do and never manage.

Your opinion of that book, my opinion of that book, means squat.
 
Sorry Wookey, but that is nonsense. Are you really trying to suggest that there are no criteria other than sales by which to judge books?

No, and you're going to have to invest some time in reading my posts a little more carefully before I spend time explaining what I just have in several different hues to Virginia Woolf over there.;)

I like a good potoiler as much as the next man, Alistair MacLean being my author of choice, and I've respect for anyone who can write one. It's a skill I don't have. But it's a rather different endeavour from writing something 'literary.'

Rubbish. If you'll forgive me being so direct. The endeavour is precisely the same, and the distinction is one maintained by a culturally elitist bunch of wankers who disrespect any writer who doesn't fit their tightly controlled manifesto of intellectual superiority.

Pah! And double Pah! The Emporor is waving his willy about in full view.:)
 
No, and you're going to have to invest some time in reading my posts a little more carefully before I spend time explaining what I just have in several different hues to Virginia Woolf over there.;)

It seemed a pardonable simplification.

Rubbish. If you'll forgive me being so direct. The endeavour is precisely the same, and the distinction is one maintained by a culturally elitist bunch of wankers who disrespect any writer who doesn't fit their tightly controlled manifesto of intellectual superiority.

Pah! And double Pah! The Emporor is waving his willy about in full view.:)

Oh bollocks, Wookey. You know I like you, but your holier-than-thou tone gets very wearing at times.

Tell me, do you think the average thriller- or Mills and Boon author sets out to make some comment on the human condition through their work, or do they just seek to entertain? Therein lies the difference. It's not for me to say that one is more valid than t'other - which is why accusations of snobbery are misplaced - but difference there is.
 
Did you know that Mills and Boon books are written to such a tight formula that characters have to meet in a certain chapter, be overtaken by events in another and get together near the end? A friend of mine looked into writing one out of interest, and it really is that formulaic. Are you really saying that there is as much literary merit in that as Tolstoy?

I can't read Tolstoy, it sends me to sleep.

I can't write Mills and Boon, I don't know the genre well enough and I don't have the discipline.

So who's to say who's the winner?

Mills and Boon sell more, and arguably mean more to more people.

Are you telling me Tolstoy is better coz it is harder?

:D
 
I can't read Tolstoy, it sends me to sleep.

I can't write Mills and Boon, I don't know the genre well enough and I don't have the discipline.

So who's to say who's the winner?

Mills and Boon sell more, and arguably mean more to more people.

Are you telling me Tolstoy is better coz it is harder?

:D

Now who's putting words in people's mouths? :D
 
first of all wookey mate i dont like "literary clasiscs" or obscure, hard to understand books , but I also dont like books with a cliched, incredulous plot, shallow characterisation, writing riddled with cliches, etc. Thats not the same as being a snob about books.

I cant stand pretentious books with hard to understand meandering plots that go absolutely nowhere and meant to epress some great truth about the world. I have never read most of what are considered "classics".

And Mills and boons are shit, there is nothing wrong with admitting that they are shit. Most people who read them know this. But they still read them. And enjoy them. Whats wrong with that? Nothing. But dont try and pretend they are a work of genius.

I dont like eastenders either but i would never say the acting is shit, a lot of those actors have gone on to major roles in films and the characters tend to be a lot more complex than in many hollywood blockbusters.
 
I can't read Tolstoy, it sends me to sleep.

I can't write Mills and Boon, I don't know the genre well enough and I don't have the discipline.

So who's to say who's the winner?

Mills and Boon sell more, and arguably mean more to more people.

Are you telling me Tolstoy is better coz it is harder?

:D

Tolstoy sent you to sleep because it was hard?
 
You aren't a writer JC, and dare I say it I don't think you're much of a reader either. ;) If you were you would know that committing whole years of your life to a novel in a bid to get rich is a silly, silly way to try and get rich. The odds against it are frightening.

If you can write a throw-away potboiler that sells millions, then you have by definition written a brilliant book. I have no time for this snobbishness that separates literary genre fiction from the rest, it's tired, baseless, old-fashioned and anti-writer.

Well, I beg to differ. Dean Koontz and Clive Cussler have an approach to writing that is different from the approach of Vladimir Nabokov or Richard Ford, for instance.

And why do you think it is that various 'popular' writers have used pseudonyms, either to write their potboilers, or to use when they attempt to write and publish a 'good' book without sullying the moneymaking machine they have going under the other name?

Interesting comment: you aren't a 'writer'. Sounds like you have clothed 'writing' in some sort of mystical garb, perhaps to give yourself some explanation as to why you haven't got that novel that you want to write. Too many roadblocks in front of getting it started.
 
Bad books don't sell millions. They really don't.:D

But formulaic potboilers do.

Btw, you know of course that the most successful novel series ever, in terms of sales, is Harlequin Romance?

Brilliant books, every one?


p.s. there are 'how to-s' on how to write Harlequin Romance. If you follow it closely, you can probably get a commercially successful book.

That isn't my definition of a 'brilliant book'.
 
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