Is it all bollocks

[taffboy gwyrdd]

You what? How does that deal in any way with any of my points beyond offerng the moralist code?

"moralism" is difficult. propose a "moralist code" and people will slag you off. Without one, we are amoral or immoral which is quite possibly worse.

Capitalism is amoral by definition, and look where it has got us.

Not that I do think I am especially offering a moralist code - just stating facts that some people are uncomfortable with. For better or worse, class based politics have little resonance in our country now because a large amount of people see themselves as middle class regardless of whether they are or not.

The old upper working and lower middle classes have more or less merged.

The "underclass" (horrible term I accept) are not neccessarily politicised in any theoretical or community sense at all.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

What do you think happens with surplus value? They turn it into candyfloss or something? No, they turn it into productive capital that exploits the workers in those countires - and the people that do that are called capitalists, and it's not me or you or any *attitude* that does this.

I accpet that and agree with it. Now all we have to do is convince the vast majority of people in this country who wouldnt give a toss for what we are talking about whether they are exploited or not. Then we need to formulate and pursuade them of an alternative programme. I suggest that to constantly contextualise that programme in terms of class will not get very far with them.

 

[butchersapron]

Right, thanks for that. Clear, concise and to the point.

 

[butchersapron]

I accpet that and agree with it. Now all you have to do is convince the vast majority of people in this country who wouldnt give a toss for what we are talking about whether they are exploited or not. Bon Chance.

I have to do nothing of the sort and it's a massively different argument from what you started with which was them exploiting workers in pooorer countries. We're both exploited vs you're exploiting me

You've not thought this through at all have you?

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

I have to do nothing of the sort and it's a massively different argument from what you started with which was them exploiting workers in pooorer countries. We're both exploited vs you're exploiting me

You've not thought this through at all have you?

Most of us are exploited. Many of us are exploiting one another. Doesnt even need much thinking through.

 

[butchersapron]

It does if you miss the incredibly important bit of who is exploiting who and if you get it wrong (as you do glaringly did). You're right, it's pretty bloody simple - so what's your excuse?

 

[butchersapron]

Many of us are exploiting one another.

Who and where.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Who and where.

Think I said that. Globally, many of us are both exploiter and exploited.

 

[butchersapron]

No, you didn't. You *said* it sure.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Torres

If a working class person in this country buys a product that is the source of sweatshop labour they are complicit in the exploitation. Ugly but true.
Tell them so and they may well tell you to fuck off and mind your own business because many working class people fully subscribe to capitalism. still true, and possibly uglier.

Is this dealing with your point?

 

[butchersapron]

Torres

If a working class person in this country buys a product that is the source of sweatshop labour they are complicit in the exploitation. Ugly but true.
Tell them so and they may well tell you to fuck off and mind your own business because many working class people fully subscribe to capitalism. still true, and possibly uglier.

Is this dealing with your point?

No they're not. Is this clear enough?

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

No they're not. Is this clear enough?

Yes they are, assuming they have an idea of the conditions under which the goods were produced and are happy to perpetuate those conditions so long as the goods remain cheap to them.

The global working class are generally far from in solidarity with one another. The UK working class largley go along with capitalism. Perhaps you have to romanticised a vision of them to want to see that they can be in an exploiters role, but you shouldnt let that get in the way of the facts.

 

[butchersapron]

No, they're not - you've just failed over 3 or 4 posts to explain why or how they are, and in the face of me giving you another model of universal exploitation. Will you try and deal with this stuff?

 

[butchersapron]

Let's make this exploiters role clear.This is the space for you to explain how the working class in this country(and others) exploit those in the 3rd/poorer world. Off you go:

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Let's make this exploiters role clear.This is the space for you to explain how the working class in this country(and others) exploit those in the 3rd/poorer world. Off you go:

Ive done it. We are going round in circles and we disagree.

Go into Primark, tell the (probably working class) people shopping there about the condidtions the clothes are produced in. You will likely get a response of "yeah whatever". Wantonly enjoying the cheap produce of exploited labour is complicity in that exploitation.

you want it simple - blame the big bad capitalist bad guys, and sure they have a lot of the blame. But to think the UK working class are some great sanctified mass who would never take advantage of anyone or anything is plain silly. They do it all the time, just like the middle class do.

It's like blaming Thatcher entirely for Thatcherism - easily done and much easier than recognising how popular she was.

Or blaming The Sun for being reactionary shit - very true, but its much harder to face the fact that millions of people in this country (many many of whom are working class) actually want reactionary shit.

 

[butchersapron]

Ive done it. We are going round in circles and we disagree.

Go into Primark, tell the (probably working class) people shopping there about the condidtions the clothes are produced in. You will likely get a response of "yeah whatever". Wantonly enjoying the cheap produce of exploited labour is complicity in that exploitation.

you want it simple - blame the big bad capitalist bad guys, and sure they have a lot of the blame. But to think the UK working class are some great sanctified mass who would never take advantage of anyone or anything is plain silly. They do it all the time, just like the middle class do.

It's like blaming Thatcher entirely for Thatcherism - easily done and much easier than recognising how popular she was.

Or blaming The Sun for being reactionary shit - very true, but its much harder to face the fact that millions of people in this country (many many of whom are working class) actually want reactionary shit.

No we haven't and no you're simplifying things for yourself. You're not even close to touching on my points.

Wanton enjoyment of primark -are you some 19th century priest or something?

Who exacrtly are these wanton women exploiting? Let's do this step by step as you seem to need it. Step by step. Let's do it.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

No we haven't and no you're simplifying things for yourself. You're not even close to touching on my points.

Wanton enjoyment of primark -are you some 19th century priest or something?

Who exacrtly are these wanton women exploiting? Let's do this step by step as you seem to need it. Step by step. Let's do it.

I was given to understand that men shop in Primark too, careful of the stereotyping if you're calling me a "19th century priest" type

You asked me to explain how working class people here exploit working class people elsewhere. I have. If you are disappointed that I have not done so in the context of a strict theoretical dialectic I am sorry but you shouldnt be so exclusivist. I am fully aware of how capitalism operates, so are you but you would perhaps rather avoid some of the more uncomfortable aspects, such as the active complicity of much of the UK working class in the global capitalist system.

To deride someone for making "moral" points seems (again) a little naive. Morality is at the heart of how we treat one another as human beings.

 

[butchersapron]

You asked me to explain how working class people here exploit working class people elsewhere. .

No, you haven't. All you said is that some people are richer than others.

 

[october_lost]

Go into Primark, tell the (probably working class) people shopping there about the condidtions the clothes are produced in. You will likely get a response of "yeah whatever". Wantonly enjoying the cheap produce of exploited labour is complicity in that exploitation.

you want it simple - blame the big bad capitalist bad guys, and sure they have a lot of the blame. But to think the UK working class are some great sanctified mass who would never take advantage of anyone or anything is plain silly. They do it all the time, just like the middle class do.

This conclusively proves you dont understand class conciousness. If workers had a working class conciousness en mass, the system would have difficulty running. Therefore yes our class is infested with bigotry and conservative values precisely because it isnt fully aware of its power or its status, its the job of revolutionaries to push out these middle class dividing ideas and empower our class.
I fail to see how buying things at primark is a form of exploitation, exploitation will always exist until our class controls the means of production. To pick a bad form of exploitation over a good form is by its nature a liberal idea. Building a lifestyle around boycotts is by its nature middle class, because only middle class people would argue something so ridiculous and be able to support it financially.

 

[lewislewis]

No, you have a very different understanding of exploitation than me then. A liberal-moral one. One that works on a dodgy model really - the link between people in poorer countries and here is that they both have money taken off them by the bosses. This is the fundamental point. Not this silly moralism. A structrual understanding of how the system works, whose interets it works in and how they maintain their control over it, Not a silly 'You have more money than them' approach.

If the link is only theoretical and is not there in peoples' consciousness, it is futile and pointless debating around there being any kind of similarity between the working class in the UK and the working class in Rwanda.

The argument that workers in European liberal democracies should overthrow their bosses is a ridiculous one to the vast and overwhelming majority of people.

 

[butchersapron]

If the link is only theoretical and is not there in peoples' consciousness, it is futile and pointless debating around there being any kind of similarity between the working class in the UK and the working class in Rwanda.

The argument that workers in European liberal democracies should overthrow their bosses is a ridiculous one to the vast and overwhelming majority of people.

Who on earth says that it's only theoretical!? It's real and it's concrete. Far more so that the silly liberal vicar postion that western workers are the exploiters of 'third world labour' rather than those that make the profit off the backs of these people.

 

[simon foster]

What does everyone on this thread work as? I'd like to contribute, but only on a basis of knowing who are what and when as you were.

 

[butchersapron]

At least one poster is a teacher.

 

[simon foster]

At least one poster is a teacher.

What about your good self?

 

[butchersapron]

What abour good self?

 

[Brainaddict]

No, you have a very different understanding of exploitation than me then. A liberal-moral one.

Whereas your understanding of exploitation is objective no doubt

 

[simon foster]

What abour good self?

Indeed.

 

[Brainaddict]

If the link is only theoretical and is not there in peoples' consciousness, it is futile and pointless debating around there being any kind of similarity between the working class in the UK and the working class in Rwanda.

The argument that workers in European liberal democracies should overthrow their bosses is a ridiculous one to the vast and overwhelming majority of people.

I agree with all that. But global class struggle is an objectively true reality of life and therefore cannot be challenged by mere facts

 

[butchersapron]

Whereas your understanding of exploitation is objective no doubt

No it's a subjective one. One that's different from the liberal-vicar one. I didn't argue that it's objective. Nor did i reject the other one on the basis of it's subjectivity. If you're going to reach at least make it accurate.

 

[simon foster]

No it's a subjective one. One that's different from the liberal-vicar one. I didn't argue that it's objective. Nor did i reject the other one on the basis of it's subjectivity. If you're going to reach at least make it accurate.

You should write in red pen.