Is Higher Education a privellege?

[Fruitloop]

More so than primary and secondary? In retrospect they were way more of a waste of time.

 

[tbaldwin]

More so than primary and secondary? In retrospect they were way more of a waste of time.

To be honest i think yes...And no im not just saying it for wind up value..
I think that often those most keen on the idea of more education are those that are most servile. If you tell the most servile that they are cleverst obviously a lot of them are going to like that but at the end of the day a lot of them are going to be rather characterless and unthinking...

 

[Fruitloop]

Well that's probably true of a large number of graduates these days. I reckon the problem is that the Academy as a social institution which is powerful in its own right has been pretty much emasculated in favour of a big academic sausage factory that turns out useful drones for management positions. The publish or die culture and job insecurity mean that academics themselves are less likely to stick their heads above the parapet, and anyway the whole business is now an exams-oriented league-table wankathon.

 

[Nemo]

Possibly...Its just that i do think that a lot of people develop some very unhealthy characteristics in H/E...
People do seem more prone to swallow really stupid ideas.

IME experience most of the people in question enter HE with those unhealthy characteristics.

 

[tbaldwin]

IME experience most of the people in question enter HE with those unhealthy characteristics.

Possibly...But i think having an education system that encourages people to see themselves as more intelligent etc....Has some very nasty side effects. And the whole idea of being very pro H/E when there are so many kids who get such a shit deal out of education seems er well very very very shitty..

 

[Nemo]

Possibly...But i think having an education system that encourages people to see themselves as more intelligent etc....Has some very nasty side effects. And the whole idea of being very pro H/E when there are so many kids who get such a shit deal out of education seems er well very very very shitty..

There's no doubt that the whole education system needs to be reformed root and branch, but until that happy day, messing around with HE in the way you propose is likely to result in many many people rich and poor not reaching anywhere near their full potential.

 

[tbaldwin]

There's no doubt that the whole education system needs to be reformed root and branch, but until that happy day, messing around with HE in the way you propose is likely to result in many many people rich and poor not reaching anywhere near their full potential.

I think that already happens..But it depends on what potential you mean.

But the sooner educational privellege is attacked the sooner it disappears.

 

[Nemo]

But the sooner educational privellege is attacked the sooner it disappears.

The most egregious education privilege in this country is the result of public schools; at least in universities it is theoretically possible* to get wherever you go on merit rather than money or status.

*I'll not deny that in many cases privilege does play a part, especially at old universities. But universities are more egalitarian than public schools.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

I think that H/E often seems to instill a feeling of superiority in people. And many of them just churn out the same old crap without really thinking anything through. I suppose you could say all education was indoctrination to some extent and those with biggest doses often seem the most far gone.

Not always. When I was a student of education, one of the most inspiring books on the curriculum was:

Postman, N. and Weingartner, C. Teaching as a Subversive Activity. New York: Dell Publishing Co., Inc., 1969

If you can get it from a library, try reading Chapter 1. It's called "Crap-detecting"! Genius.

 

[tbaldwin]

The most egregious education privilege in this country is the result of public schools; at least in universities it is theoretically possible* to get wherever you go on merit rather than money or status.

*I'll not deny that in many cases privilege does play a part, especially at old universities. But universities are more egalitarian than public schools.

H/E seems to reinforce the public school system to me. Isnt it Oxford that has over 50% of students from private schools?
How can anybody really argue that its a good thing they get a subsidised H/E?

 

[Epicurus]

There's no doubt that the whole education system needs to be reformed root and branch, but until that happy day, messing around with HE in the way you propose is likely to result in many many people rich and poor not reaching anywhere near their full potential.

It seems to me on my limited experience of the English education system that the vast majority of problems encountered by schools come from outside the school and come from Local or Central Government.

I think the best thing that could happen to Education in England is that a non-governmental group of education professionals and others set a national curriculum, wide enough to cater for all students of all ability up to the age of 16 (14 if students were able to access other skills at local colleges such as learning a trade, see my post above).

That Government set the level of funding that follows the student to their school (pupil weighted unit iirc) and a standard funding formula for schools depending on set rules; that local education authorities are done away with as they only really have 3 statutory duties other than funnelling money to schools from the DfES and that there was an independent school inspectorate.

If education was removed as a political football then politicos wouldn’t be messing around with the system all the time, claiming this target had been hit and making so many changes to ensure that nothing was really able to be judged as the criteria changed so often there is/was nothing to judge it against.

 

[Nemo]

H/E seems to reinforce the public school system to me. Isnt it Oxford that has over 50% of students from private schools?
How can anybody really argue that its a good thing they get a subsidised H/E?

Um, how many universities do you think there are in this country? Because I'll give you a clue, it's more than one.

 

[Epicurus]

H/E seems to reinforce the public school system to me. Isnt it Oxford that has over 50% of students from private schools?
How can anybody really argue that its a good thing they get a subsidised H/E?

But isn’t the point in bold above that if there is privilege in education that is where it is? It is private (or fee paying, I always get my public and private mix up as in Brazil it is opposite to the UK) school that can only be accessed by a few that are privileged, yes it may be the case that “isn’t it Oxford that has over 50% of students from private schools” Oxford is considered one of the best universities in the World and will therefore attract the highest achieving students, that is a good thing surely.

The problem lies in the answer to this question: Why do the students going to fee paying school out perform those who go to State schools in most cases?

Why isn’t the standard of learning as high in State schools, it isn’t all about money, I work on a school that was a fresh start school and it had millions spent on it, yes the results went up but not in proportion to the amount of money spent over a 5 year period.

 

[Nemo]

The problem lies in the answer to this question: Why do the students going to fee paying school out perform those who go to State schools in most cases?

I suspect it's a result of spoon-feeding and small class sizes. Although I'm sure I heard somewhere that students from state schools do relatively better at university than toffs from private ones.

 

[Epicurus]

I suspect it's a result of spoon-feeding and small class sizes. Although I'm sure I heard somewhere that students from state schools do relatively better at university than toffs from private ones.

I have my views on why it is the case but they are not for a board like this
The point in bold would seem logical to me if you consider what most state school pupils have to endure to get the qualifications

 

[tbaldwin]

Um, how many universities do you think there are in this country? Because I'll give you a clue, it's more than one.

Thanks for that nemo....Its always good to get information from people in the know.....

 

[Azrael23]

Its your right to be brainwashed in higher education. Think about it, if it weren`t for university how many of us would be THAT good at footnotes?

THINK ON.