Is Cameron credible?

[JimPage]

Amongst the key questions is that if Cameron can get the Tories to the election in one piece, will his winning over of soft/apolitical labour/lib dem voters with his raft of crowd pleasing policies alienate enough of the tory hardcore enough to get them to jump ship and vote for UKIP, BNP or some other unforeseen populist right formation?

the biggest threat as i see it. he will certianly win back some of the centre ground, middle england, oe nation tory vote - but may annoy as many daily mail readers in the process. on asylum in particualr, i dont think we will hear too many anti-asylum noises from the tories

the good news is that this may force labour even more to the right, opening up political space to the left.

 

[JoePolitix]

Cameron has just backtracked on the particularly stupid tory policy of using public money to subsidise private health care patients. He's certainly more 'credible' than Howard/Duncan Smith/Hauge (but then again who isn't?).

Hopefully people will be aware that he was a political adviser to Norman Lamont during Black Wednesday, will be responsible for reiligning the euro tories with the far right and worst of all he is very very very similiar to Tony Blair!

 

[Streathamite]

Can you think of any other reason why we should stay in?

I can; British Industry will be terminally FUCKED if we pull out now. We will have a recession far worse, and lasting far longer, than any since the second world war.

 

[Streathamite]

...by which I mean, whilst our trade cycle is still more atlanticist than anything else, this has lessened massively over the past 30 years, and our major trade interests are in europe. Should we pull out, our trade with europe will be at a massive disadvantage to Us, when compared with any and every member of what would then be 'the 24'. And no, our imports figures would not by the same token improve, because there are so many goods seen in everyday life that we have virtually no manufacturing industry left to service, that we'd HAVE to import them.
result; skyrocketing impiort-driven inflation, interest rates ratcheted up to deal with this, expiorts collapse, huge unemployment rise, bugger all growth and national penury witjhin 5 years

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Looks like the Mail has rattled Cocaine Cameron into responding...http://www.conservatives.com/tile.do?def=news.show.article.page&obj_id=127098

 

[greenman]

Probably not, they just won't vote at all. And since when was independence a preserve of the right? The left should be just as concerned if it ever wants to have the kind of society the majority of posters in this forum seem to want. Michael Foot knew that.

I, and many other green and left posters on here are left Eurosceptics - we hail the French/Dutch defeat of the neoliberal federalist constitution and resist imposition of the Euro - however, for the reasons outlined by Jezza, and because we are internationalists, we do not advocate immediate withdrawal. It is far more important that the left unites across Europe to fight neoliberal federalism and work towards a Europe that is democratic, decentralised and socialist.

Which far right grouping are Tory MEPs going to sit with? EU rules say they do have to choose a 'grouping', which must include MEPs of more than one country.

I'd be amazed if they change from their current group, the EPP; William Hague is already saying that a move could take months, and as they were with this group throughout his tenure as leader, I think we could say it will take many, many months if it happens at all. The EPP wants more powers for more EU institutions like Eurojust, and is pro Euro and pro Constitution; in short it stands for so much that the Tories say they are against.

Most of their MEPs are federalists and don't want to leave, and only about 4 of the 26 could be called 'sceptics' anyway.

For the party's MEPs to remain with the EPP makes a complete double face of the Tory party's image as presented to UK voters. Even the Socialists don't sit with a group as committedly federalist as the Tories. The party's "hardcore" is not eurosceptic - but the party's grassroots are naive and wrong in their belief that the leadership is.

Oh dear what a dilemma for the tories!, Which bunch of fasci - sorry Democratic Right politicians to team up with? On Euroscepticism, of course the Tory leadership are only Eurosceptic when the EU appears to be doing something left wing. Much of the Party base is not Eurosceptic but little Englander Europhobic and irrational.

The EU is not regarded as an important issue to the majority because the establishment and the media have grossly played down the effect it will have on our lives since the early 1960s when the UK first applied to join. The voters have been taught to regard the EU as not much more than an irritant in their lives. And the masses, bless 'em, have fallen for the lies, never suspecting that a single European state has been planned from the start.

Yes, but it has been planned as liberal capitalist imperial bloc, not the Socialist Monster superstate of the nightmares of the Tory right.

Cameron's hope is that the whole issue of the EU can be swept out of sight because the Tory party is not committed to euroscepticism now anymore than it has ever been, apart from some of the Thatcher years. It has signed over shedloads of powers to the EU, even when Thatcher was in charge, and has not so much as squeaked as Labour has signed over even more.

The key thing for Cameron is holding his Party and voting coalition together, if appearing to be still Eurosceptic helps this, regardless of the substance, he will continue to talk Eurosceptic.

What was the Warwick agreement with the unions?

The Warwick agreement was when reps of the big unions met labour politicians prior to the last election and agreed not to rock the boat and keep funding and supporting new labour provided they threw a few crumbs and made a few promises on things like iirc corporate manslaughter legislation, backing manufacturing etc. (i.e don't mention the war!)

Are you saying that eurosceptics are headbangers? If you really know what you're talking about, please explain why you think this is so. The official reasons given for why we must stay in simply do not stand up to scrutiny.

Not Eurosceptics per se, just right wing loony Eurosceptics like Kilroy Silk, Teddy Taylor, the stinking contrarian Richard North etc. These sorts are amply represented in Tory party, full of Mail and Express "straight banana" headline believers. I regularly read the left Eurosceptic journal of the Campaign Against Euro Federalism (CAEF) for example, and whilst not always agreeing, believe they have a reasonable case. I am also aware of the behind the scenes role of bodies like the European Round Table of Industrialists in shaping the EU project, something not given as much prominence by right-wing Eurosceptics who prefer to foam on about German imperialism, socialism by the back door (oo-er ), Catholic conspiracy or whatever.

Can you think of any other reason why we should stay in?

To fight to change the whole direction of Europe - something which the Dutch and French have just shown to be possible. Plus, what Red Jezza said. Plus a right wing "post EU" Britain would be even more tied to the coat tails of the US military-industrial complex than now, if that is possible

 

[lewislewis]

Goneforlunch, you talk about 'we' staying in, you don't realise Wales' role in Europe. Wales receives more money than it puts in. Wales now receives more money from the EU than from England.

How about giving Wales its own tax levying powers? THEN we can pay for ourselves.

The EU has helped to guarantee peace on the continent since the end of WW2.
Edited to add- What about all the progressive social, human rights and workers rights legislation too? We wouldn't have gotten them under Blair or Thatcher or any other British regime, because all British regimes must obey the conservative tradition of London Government and this 'Middle England' bollocks.

 

[Masonic Mystery]

He is very credible, he has said he will overturn the hunt ban, which is enough for me.

 

[silentNate]

As a far left-winger Cameron will never get my vote...

Unlike some other posters I've followed tobyjugs posts for a while and see him as being the target audience...

If he is recieving letters from the Labour Party worried then I share a concern that he might gain power

Though he is for the legalisation of drugs, I think he just wants to pay public servive workers less and encourage the rich in taking tax-breaks, innit

 

[magneze]

He is very credible, he has said he will overturn the hunt ban, which is enough for me.

Has he? I find that unlikely ...

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Has he? I find that unlikely ...

Unlikely that the ban will be overturned or that he said that?

 

[magneze]

Unlikely that the ban will be overturned or that he said that?

Both actually. I kinda doubt he'd want to wade into the quagmire of that policy ... but I could be wrong ...

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Both actually. I kinda doubt he'd want to wade into the quagmire of that policy ... but I could be wrong ...

He did actually say it but yeah I can't see him having any impact on that decision...

 

[Streathamite]

Edited to add- What about all the progressive social, human rights and workers rights legislation too? We wouldn't have gotten them under Blair or Thatcher or any other British regime, because all British regimes must obey the conservative tradition of London Government and this 'Middle England' bollocks.

errmm....we kinda did get them under Blair, cos it was blair (and whichever frontbench spokesman it was, might've been that dork Harman) who committed Labour to signing up to and implementing the social chapter, when in oposition in the mid-'90s, and then - to be fair - honoured the promise when elected.
[\pedant mode off]

 

[binka]

last night me and my housemate were watching the news and she said she thought cameron looked 'quite cool' (she isnt a tory either) when i pointed out he was wearing a jumper over a shirt she backed down.

he is credible to the british public no doubt. as for whether he is taking the tory party leftwards - i doubt it. when you start ten foot to the right, moving left an inch really isnt making much difference and i doubt any tories will ever have a genuine change of opinion/agenda especially when they actually get power.

 

[lewislewis]

errmm....we kinda did get them under Blair, cos it was blair (and whichever frontbench spokesman it was, might've been that dork Harman) who committed Labour to signing up to and implementing the social chapter, when in oposition in the mid-'90s, and then - to be fair - honoured the promise when elected.
[\pedant mode off]

Good, that should be their duty as a 'socialist' party. But without the EU there wouldn't have been a 'social charter' or anything of the sort.

 

[goneforlunch]

Red jezza

We still do a lot of trade with the US which might be jeopardised by becoming involved with a trade war between the US and the EU, and in what way are our major trade interests in Europe? UK businesses haven't benefited from the Single Market, and leaving would mean the freedom to negotiate our own genuine free trade agreements even with the EU.

All the problems you mentioned are more likely to happen if we remain shackled to the protectionist customs zone that the EU is. The eurozone is hampered by slow growth, and high social costs, high employment costs, and, much as I'd we'd all like more money in our wage packets, it means that we can't compete with the Asian economies, especially the Chinese, in manufacturing. Businesses are being strangled by our own politicians and bureacrats enforcing EU rules and red tape, which the multi nationals who are pro EU have the resources to manage, but small and medium sized businesses don't.

America is not doing well either, and I don't trust US politicians anymore than I trust any other, but I don't see that being in the EU will help us.

Greenman

I didn't tell you about the Tories and the EPP to elicit your sympathy for them, so please find a Tory to stick your tongue out at. but we seem to agree that they are not eurosceptics. The Tories have betrayed the right, and they couldn't sit with a grouping more at odds with their image, but there are groups that would fit their image.

The French voted no to the Constitution, as far as I can tell, because it threatened to upset the cosy financial relationship they have enjoyed for the last 40 odd years. The Dutch voted no for less clear reasons, but perhaps paying more into the pot per head than any other EU country might have had something to do with it?

It is difficult to see how you can call yourself an "internationalist" and still support the EU, the EU being a protectionist customs zone. Reform of the CAP would be a good start, but people have been trying to reform it for years with no success because the French, and rich French farmers in particular, have always stood in the way. But I'm sure you know all about the CAP and its effects on African farmers, and our own poor.

And an EU that is democratic - no chance, too many important committees meet in secret with no published minutes, and a puppet parliament. And decentralised - no chance, it's a bloated bureacracy and bureacrats always crave more power. The socialists have gained a lot in the EU, but it doesn't seem to bother you that they have used non-democratic methods to foist socialism on the UK.

Immediate withdrawal wouldn't be good for the EU or the UK, but a staged withdrawal would be good for the UK (or England if Wales and Scotland want to remain EU regions).


I disagree on the intentions of the EU's founding fathers, and de Gaulle made sure it was not a capitalist entity. And ever since it has been a curious mixture of rampant socialism and rampant capitalism. The worst from both systems.


So left wing eurosceptics are right and right wing eurosceptics are loony? (I doubt either side would want to claim RKS!)

I am not a Tory, only read the Mail if its left on the train, and then only if no one can see me, and have no time for straight banana stories. (I did find the CAEF site to be excellent.) That industrialists or multi nationals are trying to shape the EU project seems obvious once one understands how much is suppressed by the press. And I am right wing, and have never foamed about anything - certainly not German imperialism. And a Catholic conspiracy ... what when CofE Bishops have been right behind the project for years ... I don't think so!

Thanks for explaining the Warwick agreement.



Lewis Lewis

I am quite well aware that Wales is a net receiver of EU money. But the UK is a net contributor by a huge margin, so a lot of the money that Wales gets actually comes from the UK, although it comes through EU channels. The UK shouldn't have to stay in because it suits Wales, there are a few million of us on the other side of the border.

If Wales really does want its own tax raising powers, would it actually want to pay for the huge costs of the Welsh Assembly, and pay for all the grand plans it has for things like "embassies" in US cities? With all due respect to Wales how could 2.5 million Welsh people afford all that? It seems doubtful that the Welsh would want that when the vote for the Assembly was won by such a narrow margin on a low turnout.


I do agree with some of things the EU has forced onto Britain (I am especially pleased, being female, that equal pay for the sexes came into force before I started work) but I believe that these things would have come into force anyway under a British government working for the people.

I don't think British politicians have represented the people's interests for quite some time, and I don't think a load of European politicians are going to either. Time for a new order I think. Please note: I like continental Europeans (and have lived and worked in mainland Europe) but I don't want to be ruled by unelected and undemocratic institutions based in other EU countries.

 

[greenman]

Briefly, agree on many of the criticisms you make on the EU, but still think that in the short term the best approach is to combine with progressive allies across the continent to attack these deficiencies, rather than retreat into little Englandism!
De Gaulle a socialist????
I wasn't sticking my tongue out at you, rather the Tories and their "problem".

 

[goneforlunch]

Greenman

Leaving doesn't mean little Englandism, far from it. The EU is an outdated pre 1950s ideal, and staying in means little Europeanism. And I wish any progressive allies luck in attacking the deficiencies; they're going to need a lot of it; aspects of the Constitution are already being brought in via the back door.

It probably would have been more correct to stay that de Gaulle believed above everything else in the power of France as personified by the French state, and he was implacably opposed to European political integration.