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is britain literally becoming a police state?

TeeJay said:
Everything we do here is wordplay

I disagree with fela fan that the UK is a "police state" and my point in mentioning Thailand was to contrast the UK favourably with it, to make my point. It obviously wasn't aimed at you.

fuck man, where did i say categorically britain was a police state? I proposed the idea that it was in the process of becoming (note the 'ing' of that phrase), and wanted to see if posters in britain agreed in any way my thoughts. I made the decided pointer that i was no longer in britain and therefore was seeking others' views.
 
FridgeMagnet said:
But you don't have any experience at all of the average person's level of daily interference from the police force in the UK.

Wrong. I lived in britain for 27 years before i left the country. Therefore i was an 'average person' for 27 years.

And i have plenty of mates all over the country who tell me their stories, and have done in the 14 years since i left. Plus my experiences of going back there for holidays. Plus what i read here, and elsewhere.

You should quit projecting your ideas onto me fridge. You've always done it, and it betrays the debate of someone who is lazy towards listening.
 
fela fan said:
[quit bringing in decontextualised quotes from other threads]

In my opinion britain is more of a police state than thailand. I judge that based on the average person's level of daily interference from the police force.


Thats right, I was just chatting to an average person. They were just simply trying to buy a sandwich for their disabled gran. But me and David Blunkett were having none of it? "What the fuck do you think your doing,helping a sponger? Blunkett kicked the woman hard in the ribs and then Jack Straw came with a stun gun and shot everyone else in the quee for looking foreign.
And then i saw 700 police vans speeding down Brixton Road and shooting all the passers by.
It was great!
 
Poi E said:
Nah, not a police state, but I would wager that any powers that are given to the executive under current and proposed legislation will remain on the statute books. It's a shame as the UK had such a wonderful history of civil liberties but is rapidly becoming a shadow of its former self.

And that is certainly the position that i'm taking. I was just wondering, mainly since i no longer experience day to day life there, whether we had progressed to another level, one nearer a police state.

It is informative seeing how some just simply cannot take what they perceive as criticism, yet in fact was more of a questioning stance.
 
tbaldwin said:
Thats right, I was just chatting to an average person. They were just simply trying to buy a sandwich for their disabled gran. But me and David Blunkett were having none of it? "What the fuck do you think your doing,helping a sponger? Blunkett kicked the woman hard in the ribs and then Jack Straw came with a stun gun and shot everyone else in the quee for looking foreign.
And then i saw 700 police vans speeding down Brixton Road and shooting all the passers by.
It was great!

That's a nice paragraph (or was it two of them?) but what does it actually mean? What are you trying to say?
 
fela fan said:
That's a nice paragraph (or was it two of them?) but what does it actually mean? What are you trying to say?


That its Bollocks to talk about Britain as though its becoming like a Police State.
 
fela fan said:
Wrong. I lived in britain for 27 years before i left the country. Therefore i was an 'average person' for 27 years.

And i have plenty of mates all over the country who tell me their stories, and have done in the 14 years since i left. Plus my experiences of going back there for holidays. Plus what i read here, and elsewhere.

You should quit projecting your ideas onto me fridge. You've always done it, and it betrays the debate of someone who is lazy towards listening.
Talking to a few mates and reading what some people on the internet say does not give you an idea of the average person's level of daily interference etc. Neither does having lived in the UK for 27 years if you've been out of it for 14.

If it was you wouldn't need to ask the question would you? Although it's clear that you think you know the answer already.
 
fela fan said:
And that is certainly the position that i'm taking. I was just wondering, mainly since i no longer experience day to day life there, whether we had progressed to another level, one nearer a police state.

It is informative seeing how some just simply cannot take what they perceive as criticism, yet in fact was more of a questioning stance.

Yeah but it's not the day to day stuff is it? It's the slippery slope. By the time you really notice things are repressive it's far too late.
 
tbaldwin said:
That its Bollocks to talk about Britain as though its becoming like a Police State.

I was ASKING man. Don't you get that simple premise? What the fuck's wrong with you today?

And in any case, based on the laws that keep getting passed, and the crap that emanates from blair's mouth, and all the mouths of his acolytes, it's not bollocks at all. If there's anything in what i'm questioning, then it's important we nip it in the bud.

Anyway, you live there, you put up with it. What the fuck should i care?
 
FridgeMagnet said:
Talking to a few mates and reading what some people on the internet say does not give you an idea of the average person's level of daily interference etc. Neither does having lived in the UK for 27 years if you've been out of it for 14.

If it was you wouldn't need to ask the question would you? Although it's clear that you think you know the answer already.

Wrong on all accounts. How on earth should 14 cancel out 27??? Where did you fathom that kind of thinking eh? Go on, explain yourself.

I also notice how you changed my 'plenty' of mates to a 'few' mates. Clever. Not.
 
Poi E said:
Yeah but it's not the day to day stuff is it? It's the slippery slope. By the time you really notice things are repressive it's far too late.

Good to see your contributions mate. That's exactly the position i'm in, though most of the british posters have got their knickers in such a twist they can't see what i'm actually pointing out.

When a person is no longer in the day to day stuff, he can see things from time to time. He notices changes precisely coz he's no longer there.

But i must add, it was what i thought was happening, and the main idea of my thread was to see if i'd got it wrong. But hysterical posters have blinded themselves to the proposition of my thread. What a shock eh.
 
fela fan said:
But i must add, it was what i thought was happening, and the main idea of my thread was to see if i'd got it wrong. But hysterical posters have blinded themselves to the proposition of my thread. What a shock eh.

Yeah seems to be a surprisingly sensitive topic. Maybe some people have experienced a real police state or have friends/family who have and don't like the comparison. Anyway, interesting to note.
 
fela fan said:
Wrong on all accounts. How on earth should 14 cancel out 27??? Where did you fathom that kind of thinking eh? Go on, explain yourself.

I also notice how you changed my 'plenty' of mates to a 'few' mates. Clever. Not.
Because if you're asking about CURRENT AFFAIRS, which you ARE in case you'd forgotten, you need CURRENT KNOWLEDGE, not fourteen year old knowledge. And unless you've got dozens of people coming to see you every month, picked at random as a representative sample of the population (as opposed to "people who visit Thailand who are your mates") you're not getting much actual information are you?
 
FridgeMagnet said:
And unless you've got dozens of people coming to see you every month, picked at random as a representative sample of the population (as opposed to "people who visit Thailand who are your mates") you're not getting much actual information are you?

Heh, continue your projections mate. I've got some good sunglasses for you to avoid blindness...

Who's talking about mates who come to visit me? Only you. I was talking about my mates who live in britain, and never left britain.

Believe it or not, i get plenty of CURRENT AFFAIRS information. I just love it the way me, a man who left the country, is apparantly not allowed to criticize it. You and editor are amongst the chief culprits on this line.
 
Poi E said:
Yeah seems to be a surprisingly sensitive topic. Maybe some people have experienced a real police state or have friends/family who have and don't like the comparison. Anyway, interesting to note.

No, whether it's me, or typical of me, many here don't like criticism of britain if the poster don't live there. Any time i post up a thread that can be deemed critical of britain, they all come out blazing. My fault is i no longer live there. Nothing to do with my debating...
 
fela fan said:
Heh, continue your projections mate. I've got some good sunglasses for you to avoid blindness...

Who's talking about mates who come to visit me? Only you. I was talking about my mates who live in britain, and never left britain.

Believe it or not, i get plenty of CURRENT AFFAIRS information. I just love it the way me, a man who left the country, is apparantly not allowed to criticize it. You and editor are amongst the chief culprits on this line.
"Projections"? "Sunglasses"? You're going to start talking about mirrors again aren't you?

You can (and do) say what you like, but when that's vague generalised bollocks based on nothing very much, as it frequently is, people are often going to say "you're talking bollocks". And when you start a thread ostensibly asking a question and then ignore everyone's answer in favour of what you thought in the first place, which is what you've done this time, people will wonder why you bothered and call you an over-dramatising fool.

If you don't like it then don't post such guff. Mate.
 
fela fan said:
Okay teejay. Firstly as i just said, i reckon britain exhibits more aspects that indicate a police state than thailand. But only since you brought the bloody country into this debate in the first place. As if that would negate my QUESTIONS.
This opening sentence doesn't look much like a question - more of a statement:
fela fan said:
Oh dear, as predicted by some/many here on urban at the time, Britain is following a similar path to that of apartheid South Africa back in the 60s, when Nelson Mandela was a ‘terrorist’.
fela fan said:
Secondly, the thai police didn't decide to do anything with regards to drugs. Their actions were based on the political flavour of the day (rather like blair and his gang).
So the state ordered the police to kill people illegally and it did so? This is classic police state behaviour.
fela fan said:
Thirdly, you need to use the past tense. It happened, it's over, and as for the ramifications, start a new thread. Coz it will have no bearing whatsoever on any answers that my thread was seeking.
So the Thai government has got through with murdering vast numbers of drug users/dealers - but what is it now up to in the south?

"A wave of attacks in southern Thailand forced the government to stop blaming "bandits" and acknowledge, for the first time in decades, that separatist militants were operating in the country. On 05 January 2004 Thai Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra declared martial law in most of the affected region, the provinces of Narathiwat, Pattani and Yala. Defence Minister Thamarak Isarangura authorised Fourth Army Region commander Lt-General Phongsak Aekbansingha to place six districts in Narathiwat, three districts in Yala and four districts in Pattani under martial law." http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/thailand2.htm

There have been over 1000 deaths since January 2004.

In October of 2004 the town of Tak Bai in Narathiwat province saw the most publicized incident of the insurgency. Six local men were arrested, accused of having supplied weapons to insurgents. A demonstration was organized to demand their release and the police called in army reinforcements. The army used tear gas and water cannons on the crowd, and shooting started in which six men were killed.

Hundreds of local people, mostly young men, were arrested. They were made to take off their shirts and lie on the ground. Their hands were tied behind their backs. Later that afternoon, they were thrown by soldiers into trucks to be taken to an army camp in the next province of Pattani. The prisoners were stacked five or six deep in the trucks, and by the time the trucks reached their destination three hours later, in the heat of the day, 78 men had suffocated to death.

This incident sparked widespread protests across the south, and indeed across Thailand, since many non-Muslim Thais were appalled at the army's behaviour. Thaksin, however, gave the army his full support, and no-one has been charged with any offence in relation to the Tai Bak incident. His first response was to defend the army's actions, saying that the 78 men died "because they were already weak from fasting during the month of Ramadan."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Thailand_insurgency

You really think that the UK is more of a police state than Thailand?
 
fela fan said:
And it is therefore obvious that you have no understanding of question marks and eliciting others' opinions are.

By asking if Britain is becoming a police state, it's obvious to me that you don't know what a police state is.
 
hibee said:
It's a bit like when trots go on about the BNP being "nazis", departing from a logical train of thought at one point down the line and completely misrepresenting the threat that is faced.

It's sometimes difficult not to reach that conclusion, particularly when members of the BNP are seen on film talking about killing black people, singing about the holocaust and giving sieg heil salutes.

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/regions/leedsbradford/2005/05/310760.html
 
i'd say that when the police are essentially dictating policy to the government - which they are, as (tony) blair acknowledged yesterday - yr quite a way down the road to a police state.
 
Pickman's model said:
i'd say that when the police are essentially dictating policy to the government - which they are, as (tony) blair acknowledged yesterday - yr quite a way down the road to a police state.
Which of Mr Tony's pronouncements are you referring to here?

He often claims that he's doing things on the basis of police advice and intelligence, but he can't very well say "we want to scare you so we made this up".
 
FridgeMagnet said:
Which of Mr Tony's pronouncements are you referring to here?

He often claims that he's doing things on the basis of police advice and intelligence, but he can't very well say "we want to scare you so we made this up".
Question:

The Lord Chief Justice this morning has warned against Ministers browbeating the Judiciary. Isn't that precisely what you are doing and want to do? And if I may broaden out to the issue of terror laws, you are essentially saying to people with anxiety about the terror laws, trust me. Why should people trust a government that drew up terror laws that detain not only an 82-year old protestor at your Conference, but dozens of people outside that Conference who posed no threat at all?

Tony Blair:

Well, I am actually not saying that to people. I am not saying: Trust me, you have got to do whatever I say, here I have just suddenly woken up one morning and thought of these terror laws. Go and back them. That is not what is happening, let us just be very clear because I want to take this forward as far as possible by agreement with people. These anti-terrorist measures are necessary, not in the view of myself or people in government simply, but in the view of the Police who are charged with protecting our country against terrorist activity. This terrorist activity is of a wholly different order from anything we have faced before in this country. We saw in July that these people were prepared to kill over 50 innocent people, but if it could have been 500, and it might have been by what they did, then they would have rejoiced in that. We need to make sure therefore that we give ourselves every possible opportunity to prevent such terrorist acts occurring. The Police have set out why they need these powers. I think it would be irresponsible of me if I think that the fears of the Police are well grounded about the existing law and the problems with it, I think it would be irresponsible of me not to take this forward, and that is why I am doing it. I am not doing it because I am authoritarian or don't care about the civil liberties of this country. I care deeply about the civil liberties of this country, but I care about one basic civil liberty which is the right to life of our citizens and freedom from terrorism and I think if these measures are necessary we should take them.
 
on reflection, i suspect my post above would more closely show blair's real views if you remove the word "not" throughout his answer.
 
fela fan said:
No, whether it's me, or typical of me, many here don't like criticism of britain if the poster don't live there. Any time i post up a thread that can be deemed critical of britain, they all come out blazing. My fault is i no longer live there. Nothing to do with my debating...
Why don't you just shut the fuck up with your self righteous holier than thou bullshit?

You haven't got a fucking clue what's going on in Britain, so why don't you keep your clueless pronouncements to yourself?

Just a suggestion, like.
 
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