Is Brexit actually going to happen?

Discussion in 'UK politics, current affairs and news' started by Kaka Tim, Jun 27, 2016.

?

Will we have a brexit?

  1. Yes - A fully independant Britain making its own way in the world (apart from scotland).

    18.1%
  2. A Semi-Detached Norway type deal

    33.0%
  3. No - 2nd referendum and/or face saving fudge to let us slink back in feeling a bit fucking stupid

    48.8%
  1. philosophical

    philosophical Well-Known Member

    I completely agree, but it is worth trying to learn lessons from those terrible things, and trying to make things better, and trying to head off a repeat of such things, isn't it?
     
  2. Rob Ray

    Rob Ray Irony is well sad

    So you're intending to sit around sulking while Brexit happens,ignoring its impacts on you and everyone around you (other than to complain that everyone's racist) because you didn't like the outcome of a vote? How constructive.
     
    William of Walworth and sealion like this.
  3. Teaboy

    Teaboy It definitely looks brighter over there..

    You can vote lib dem next time, they'd have us back in the EU in a Parliament I reckon. Also if you have a UK and Irish passport you can go and live virtually anywhere in Europe, which is a dam lot better than most can - just ask those poor souls drowning in the med.
     
    Bahnhof Strasse likes this.
  4. philosophical

    philosophical Well-Known Member

    You're absolutely right. I certainly don't feel the desire, the need or the requirement to be constructive. I bang on and on about the Irish border because I am not ignoring the impact of brexit.
    Because the vote is forever I hate it's outcome, so you may describe my position as sulking if you like. I see it differently.
     
  5. philosophical

    philosophical Well-Known Member

    I won't vote libdem because they have a capitalist view of Education.
    When you say I can live anywhere in the EU by dint of my passport, is that simply a statement of fact, or a round about way of saying 'if you don't like it leave'?
    The poor desperate and exploited drowning souls in the med are a humanitarian crisis for all of us aren't they? In or out of the EU, in Europe or anywhere else on the planet?
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
    angusmcfangus likes this.
  6. Rob Ray

    Rob Ray Irony is well sad

    Whinging and not constructively contributing is indistinguishable from sulking afaics, so I'm not sure it matters how you'd see it. You've made your view that Brexit is Bad clear, what is to be gained from endlessly repeating yourself? What are you hoping to achieve here?

    Are you looking for Brexiters to have a Damascene conversion and suddenly cry out "oh my, you were right all along, I am a racist"? Do you think that's likely, especially here where most of the pro Leave camp have consistently explained they didn't vote that way because of immigration issues in the first place? Are you hoping for people to fall on their knees and say "oh no, Brexit is going wrong, save me philosophical" so you can laugh and feel all warm and fuzzy about being correct? What is this about?
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
    Omaplata, sealion and kabbes like this.
  7. andysays

    andysays Defiantly non-premium member

    All those are clearly the fault of Brexit voters too, as is the fact that Spurs were beaten by Juventus last night.

    Brexit voters are to blame for EVERYTHING bad ever.
     
    sealion likes this.
  8. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model Every man and every woman is a star

    spurs getting beaten is not bad
     
    William of Walworth and sealion like this.
  9. Teaboy

    Teaboy It definitely looks brighter over there..

    Hang on, I thought Brexit was vitally important? Are you saying you weigh up various factors when deciding to vote and then make a decesion based on what you think is most important? Seems an odd way to go about things?

    Simply a statement of fact. It is as an accident of birth where you are born and grow up but in theory at least you can go and live anywhere you wish in Europe. You said you wanted to cede.
     
    sealion and kabbes like this.
  10. Badgers

    Badgers Mr Big Shrimp!

    Pickman's model likes this.
  11. philosophical

    philosophical Well-Known Member

    I suppose it is about pressing the pro leave camp on what their next step is going to be.

    I am not seeking for anybody to say I am correct, because the vote is now over. It is about wandering into a left wing site and being taken aback that there are those here who voted brexit, but nevertheless accepting that has happened, and asking those people what the next step will be. My confusion is about whether two political extremes have suddenly snapped closed the circle like a bracelet, where the politics of the alt left and alt right are now in alliance.
     
  12. philosophical

    philosophical Well-Known Member

    Thank you for clearing that up, for a moment I thought it was a riff on 'piss off out of it'. I don't see living elsewhere as the same as ceding. I would like to cede from the UK because there are aspects of this country that are detestable, but other forces keep me here so I am obliged to play the hand I'm dealt, isn't that true for most people in terms of location?
     
  13. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model Every man and every woman is a star

    secede
     
    Bahnhof Strasse and Badgers like this.
  14. Rob Ray

    Rob Ray Irony is well sad

    Alright so short answer to this, no. The "alt-left" is largely a phantasm made up by the tabloids in the any case (the closest political tendency I could think of would be the younger set of tankies around stuff like Red London), but Lexit voters have totally different motivations in comparison to John Bull rightists, [edit-->] eg. concerns with the capture of the overwhelming part of the EU's institutions by neoliberal interests and associated fallout (such as Viking-Laval, or enforced privatisation policies), or a forthright analysis of the way the EU acts to enable what amounts to an abusive relationships between powerful northern European states and weaker southern ones (most notably Greece).

    Some even have specifically anti-racist reasons linked to the militarisation and attempted consolidation of "Fortress Europe", which Butchers alluded to when he pulled up that piece about the borders between Spain and Africa.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
  15. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model Every man and every woman is a star

    it's gone over yer man's head
     
    Badgers likes this.
  16. SpookyFrank

    SpookyFrank Ridin' a Stutz Bearcat, Jim

    I dunno, spurs have been a joke since loooooong before the brexit vote.
     
    sealion and Badgers like this.
  17. Teaboy

    Teaboy It definitely looks brighter over there..

    Blimey, you're right. I've been using the wrong cede for a while now.
     
    Pickman's model likes this.
  18. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model Every man and every woman is a star

    now i've planted the right seed in your mind :cool:
     
  19. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model Every man and every woman is a star

    little sir echo
     
    Badgers likes this.
  20. philosophical

    philosophical Well-Known Member

    Yes you're right.
     
  21. philosophical

    philosophical Well-Known Member

    No it hasn't. It provides food for thought.
     
  22. philosophical

    philosophical Well-Known Member

    OK, the term alt left is equally as meaningless as alt right, and can be translated into John Bullers and Lexiters?
    Incidentally you attribute what you believe to be the motivation of Lexit voters, but my attributions has been seen as invalid by some here, not because they have pointed out I am wrong for a reason, but because I couldn't know the range of reasons why 17 or so million people voted brexit. In this sense we are the same in assuming stuff about voter motivation.
    I am not unaware that there are issues within the EU as an institution, but am astonished that the reaction of Lexiters by your interpretation is to bail out and we then get a frying pan/fire interface. There are many groups in many countries in the EU that share concerns regarding the EU as a structure, I don't understand why the Lexiters wouldn't want to collaborate with such groups if they have common cause. Online technology will always be a mystery to me, but I imagine there would be ways to collaborate using it and other means. It is the notion perhaps initiated by brexiters, that the EU would be better reformed by reducing it to bite sized nation states, changing them, and then hope that would have a domino effect throughout Europe that very much troubles me.
    To me that approach is fraught with danger but that is where lexiters and brexiters have landed the UK. Now a nation state of sorts, maybe with an 'independent Wales, and Scotland, and parcels of Ireland to come, maybe with an independent 'north' or London. How small does it have to be before that direction of travel stops?
    I also see the danger that smaller groupings are more open to exploitation by the powerful, more quickly, more easily and more permanently. Yes of course there is exploitation in the greater EU, but instead of resisting that rushing to the arms of the permanent ruling class that has always held sway in the UK seems to me to invite shackles, not move towards shaking them off.
     
  23. philosophical

    philosophical Well-Known Member

  24. Rob Ray

    Rob Ray Irony is well sad

    Generally "alt-right" is considered to encompass a fractured but specific wing of the far-right/fascist movement, mostly congregated around Breitbart, which coalesced with the aim of putting Donald Trump in power. It tends to be online-savvy and media oriented, distinct from the likes of the Tea Party but more or less closely aligned with racist patriot groups. Alt-left is just an attempt to take a scary-sounding term and apply it to people considered unacceptably left wing by the mainstream press.

    And no, it's significantly more complicated than John Bull v Lexit, because people voted Leave for a massive spectrum of reasons. Hell my folks voted Leave because they thought, although it wouldn't win, that a close vote would screw over the Tories. They were of course half-right.

    I'm not assuming the motivations of 17 million people though, I'm explaining the stated motivations over many years of people on here who have been in favour of Lexit, often backed in part or whole by the main purveyors of Lexit at the time of the referendum. The concerns over neoliberal capture of institutions and the evisceration of democratic reach for the masses over things like TTIP in particular were cited throughout the course of the Lexit campaign as its main motivation.

    I actually voted Remain, because I didn't share the optimism of Lexit that the process of leaving could be shifted away from reactionary outcomes and felt it would likely lead to Britain going further down the rainy fascist island path, while getting bullied as an isolated minor player stuck between major superpowers.

    But that's not to say I don't understand and sympathise with much of the critique - including that it's naive as hell to think that the EU is open to capture by a cross-EU progressive alliance. Bar some truly spectacular change in circumstance, the EU is going to continue to decline as both a democratic and a progressive entity, and tbh, if this question were asked again in ten years' time I might reckon that there was no more point in staying. A desire to get out of that bind and try to reassert popular progressive sovereignty in an independent country is perfectly rational and not in any way racist.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
  25. Winot

    Winot I wholeheartedley agree with your viewpoint

    A sensible Brexit policy would have had a ten year lead up anyway.
     
    William of Walworth and kabbes like this.
  26. Rob Ray

    Rob Ray Irony is well sad

    Sadly sensible was never an option.
     
  27. Winot

    Winot I wholeheartedley agree with your viewpoint

    It's looking more and more like a 'no deal' Brexit. Apparently the Government is running scared of a vote on a Customs Union because they might lose to the combined forces of Anna Soubry et al. and Labour.

    Does anyone know if Labour can force a vote on this issue? It's looking like a good time to bring the Government down.
     
  28. NoXion

    NoXion Eat leaden death, demon...

    You're the one who insists that the people who voted leave should be the ones who come up with all the details to make it work. Had Remain won, would you be insisting that Remainers provide detailed justifications for why they voted the way they did? I doubt it very much.
     
    sealion likes this.
  29. andysays

    andysays Defiantly non-premium member

    Time to get TM on the phone kabbes
     
    kabbes likes this.
  30. philosophical

    philosophical Well-Known Member

    Thank you for this interesting post, and taking the trouble to write it.

    Some of it is very informative.

    I will have to question my assumption that the intention of every brexit voter is racist, even though I am mired in the sense that I believe the consequence of the vote being to give validation to racism, and I need to resolve this and try to express myself better. My thinking has been as simple as 'if you weren't racist then, you're part of racism now', and that is very hard to shake off.

    This has been strengthened almost daily by the actions of the brexit victors in the distain shown for others, most particularly towards foreigners, and of course towards matters in Ireland in particular.

    Others have said that the Irish solution is to have a United Ireland, and whilst I have not necessarily been against that, to me it would be the establishment of another nation state with all the risks that has. Here is where we diverge. You mention sovereignty, and an independent country and it is those concepts I have trouble with. Even to the point of questioning whether sovereignty and independence even exist at all, or that they have terms that have meaning for me. If Ireland is unified it wouldn't be independent in my view because I see all places as interdependent, not even as an aspiration but as a reality. If sovereignty is simply a term for groups or units of people agreeing on stuff for the common good then fine. I see it used as a term (perhaps because it has the word 'sovereign' in it) that relates to power nationalism, separation, and indeed race.

    Anyway thank you for your post.
     
    angusmcfangus and Rob Ray like this.

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