Is anyone going to this year's Reclaim the Night?

[TeeJay]

Your exact words that I took issue with:

the chances of being raped or assaulted by stranger as a woman are ridiculously low, your more likely to get run over by a bus

Feel free to get back to me in the next few days.

I don't dispute that more rapes are committed by "non-strangers":

...but the categories of "acquaintance" and "date" can mean people that you don't really know very well, even if they are not completely random strangers you have never seen before - together these three categories make 35%, and if you take the figure of c. 50,000 that gives 17,500 which is ten times the number of people hit by buses in 1991. Even if you only take the 8% for 'strangers' this is 4000, which again is higher - although I admit that reporting of 'non-stranger' rape may well be far lower than 'stranger rape' and this would impact on these figures.

However, all the above is simply for rape, and doesn't even start looking at the figures for "assault" which are of an order of magnitude higher again.

Two points:

1. The 'hit by bus bus' comparison is both incorrect and fatuous: you simply can't make a direct comparison as the fear generated by different types of risks - it is usually different for all sorts of things and not just 'irrational' or a patriarchcal plot. The fear itself also causes a significant blight on people's lives.

2. The fact that people want to protest about one specific issue that they feel strongly about (in this case their safety on the streets) is not negated by you pulling out another issue (people's safety at home). If you want to launch a cmapiagn about domestic abuse then go right ahead, but why on earth are you using this as a stick to beat these campaigners around the head with? It's a bit like telling people to shut up about road safety in Croydon because so many more people are dying of malaria in the Democratic Republic of Congo - ie stupid.

Are you really trying to say that women don't have the right to protest about how unsafe they feel on London streets after dark, and are you really saying that they are being suckered into feeling scared by the mass media and a patriarchy that is keeping them psychologically enslaved - that their very campaign is helping reenforce this oppression?

Maybe you'd like to invite some of your female friends who do feel safe out on the streets after dark to come and post their views here rather than simply speaking for them? I'd be interested in seeing of they concur with you about how stupid women are to feel threatened and how they have simply been suckered by the mass media. ffs, I am a reasonably well-built guy who is fairly confident about handling myself but I often feel wary of being out alone, on foot in various parts of London late at night and I also know a number of friends who have been attacked - the last one hit over the head with an iron bar two weeks ago. This had nothing to do with what newspaper he read.

 

[trashpony]

ok, im scared but im gonna say it

i think the strategy of this event is completely misguided, i think it disempowers rather than empowers

I find men telling me what I should find empowering or otherwise highly obnoxious.

Excluding men from events like this is a really important thing for women who've been subjected to violence. And while organising in women-only spaces is not nearly as important now as it was twenty years ago, the casual sexism that's being bandied about on an increasingly regular basis ime means that it's always good to remind ourselves that we can do stuff on our own. The vibe at something like this is something unbelievable. There are so many largely men-only spaces in our world but very, very few events where women are in control.

 

[smokedout]

I find men telling me what I should find empowering or otherwise highly obnoxious.

i think this thinking behind this event disempowers rather than empowers both men and women

or are men not allowed an opinion on this issue

 

[trashpony]

i think this thinking behind this event disempowers rather than empowers both men and women

or are men not allowed an opinion on this issue

You can have an opinion but I don't see why you feel the need to post it on this thread. And forgive me if I don't give a shit what it is.

 

[gabi]

You can have an opinion but I don't see why you feel the need to post it on this thread. And forgive me if I don't give a shit what it is.

I don't entirely agree with smoked, but surely the point of a bulletin board is to voice opinion? Or do u want this thread to be women-only?

 

[trashpony]

I don't entirely agree with smoked, but surely the point of a bulletin board is to voice opinion? Or do u want this thread to be women-only?

I don't give a shit what you think either actually. Just the way I feel.

 

[gabi]

Cool, and that's your right.

 

[TopCat]

Good luck. I hope it does something to raise the fact that so few rapes are reported and so few of them end up with a successful prosecution.

The sentencing of rapists is pathetic. And the law needs to be changed to ensure more rapists are stopped.

What legal changes do you propose?

 

[baldrick]

errrrr! to who?

to me, possibly?

But as per fucking usual it's become a thread dominated by men telling us how to think and act and that we're all fucking wrong and misguided.

i think i expect too much of this place, sometimes.

 

[TopCat]

I wonder if yet again there will be a clash of cultures on the night? For several years there has been a hoo har between women working in the sex industry in W1 and the women on this march. Having your ability to earn a crust affected by the marchers never went down too well with the sex industry women. That the women involved with the Poppy Project have absolutely no empathy with these women is interesting and may be a result of the fact that The Poppy Project’s management is all very middle class indeed. So if you are marching through Soho and someone throws a high heeled shoe at your head you know why at least.

 

[innit]

its our partner, our parent,our friend who will injure us by and large, not some unseen sinister force - to promote the idea that the streets arent safe to walk only further promotes the idea that the streets are not safe to walk ... even though they are quite likely to be safer than your own front room

who cares about truth, long live the spectacle

this event increases fear and therefore disempowerment and alienation of women, it may provide a sticking plaster for those who attend for a few hours, but in reality it is about as counter-revoltionary as you could get

it strengthens rather than weakens patriarchy

I acknowledge your point that the majority of violence against is carried out by partners, family and friends, and I'm sure most women know this to be the case. There are many women and men working to end domestic violence. However it's not true to say that all women are more at risk at home, that depends on who shares your home with you.

And just because violence, intimidation and harassment on the street makes up a smaller slice of the pie doesn't mean it's not worth holding this event, because that risk may be statistically less but it's still real, present and there are real steps which individual women and society can take to make the streets safer.

I don't think this march increases fear. I think it raises awareness of a real threat and encourages women to keep themselves safe - hardly the definition of disempowerment.

 

[innit]

I wonder if yet again there will be a clash of cultures on the night? For several years there has been a hoo har between women working in the sex industry in W1 and the women on this march. Having your ability to earn a crust affected by the marchers never went down too well with the sex industry women. That the women involved with the Poppy Project have absolutely no empathy with these women is interesting and may be a result of the fact that The Poppy Project’s management is all very middle class indeed. So if you are marching through Soho and someone throws a high heeled shoe at your head you know why at least.

The sex industry makes the streets less safe for all women, not just those who work in it. I don't know what it's got to do with the Poppy Project - the march is organised by the London Feminist Network.

 

[baldrick]

I wonder if yet again there will be a clash of cultures on the night? For several years there has been a hoo har between women working in the sex industry in W1 and the women on this march. Having your ability to earn a crust affected by the marchers never went down too well with the sex industry women.

Really? The organisers should have changed the route if that was the case. I don't doubt your story, but i wonder how much hoo-ha there was given the march lasts an hour at best. It's one night in the year and both sides should have respect for each other.

 

[Nigel]

Good Luck!

Good luck with the event.

I don't thinkl that there can be any way of reasoning that women are not likely to be in fear or be intimidated by mysogenistic aggressive gangs of men walking through Central London.

Even gay or transgender people would not receive the level of harrasement that women, especially walking on their own would get.

Incidentely why would any men want to go to an event with a load of women bitching about men, seems a bit perverse to me?

 

[Taxamo Welf]

to me, possibly?

But as per fucking usual it's become a thread dominated by men telling us how to think and act and that we're all fucking wrong and misguided.

i think i expect too much of this place, sometimes.

men can oppress you just by being men over the interent?
What is it, the Lynx effect?

Surely anonymous posting over an internet forum is pretty much the epitomy of equal debate?

 

[Taxamo Welf]

fair play on the march BTW if it makes you feel happier and stuff, why not?

 

[TopCat]

The sex industry makes the streets less safe for all women, not just those who work in it. I don't know what it's got to do with the Poppy Project - the march is organised by the London Feminist Network.

If you got both groups in one room, the movers and shakers are all the same people.

 

[Wilf]

Apologies if its already been said.. ain't read all the thread....

I think the 'why concentrate on a public space march when rape is primarily domestic/known perp.' line is way off the mark. As I understand it, back in the 70s/early 80s, the idea of these kind of marches was to react against violence certainly. But they were also about responding to police advice that women should keep off the streets after dark, or only go out with male escorts. The marches are, literally, about reclaiming the night back from that kind of notion - and a positive feeling of collective power. The % of attacks carried out by actual strangers is irrelevant.

Also the idea of having a women's march followed by a mixed rally seems like a pretty good mix to me.

 

[smokedout]

thats not the political message they are putting out now, its very much about the politics of fear from what ive read of their prop

they say that are are marching down streets theyd to be scared to walk down at night

frankly, anyone male or female whos too scared to walk through the west end at night is a wuss

 

[TopCat]

From their website:

"All too many of us know what it is to experience male violence, including rape, domestic violence, sexual abuse, pornography, prostitution, forced marriage, female genital mutilation and so-called 'honour' crimes."

Pornography equals male violence against women?

Female genital mutilation (almost always done by women to girls) equals male violence against women?

 

[baldrick]

Pornography equals male violence against women?

Female genital mutilation (almost always done by women to girls) equals male violence against women?

Depending on your view of what a patriarchal society consists of, and it's limitations, it could be.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

Only on urban...a women-only march announced and loads of blokes swarming all over it to give their opinions as to why its pointless or disempowering or discriminatory. FFFS. Is it any wonder people have got pissed off with protest, when all you're met with is sneers and supercilious attitudes?

Hasn't no-one else ever got a feeling of strength from joining up with a load of other like-minded people about an issue and making some form of public statement about it? Or is it the way of popular protest now that everything has to be run by the 'credibility' police?

Good luck with the march, I hope y'all enjoy it.

 

[smokedout]

yeah but this isnt a protest really is it, what are the demands?

its right narked me off because id heard about it a couple of years ago and just assumed it was some daily mail style more cops on the street propaganda

was gutted when i looked into it this year and found it was a load of lefty feminists

 

[Taxamo Welf]

"All too many of us know what it is to experience male violence, including rape, domestic violence, sexual abuse, forced marriage, female genital mutilation and so-called 'honour' crimes."

march through brick lane and tower hamlets then

i don't think many arranged marriages take place in the west end...?

 

[Wilf]

march through brick lane and tower hamlets then

i don't think many arranged marriages take place in the west end...?

You may have to think about changing your tagline

 

[TeeJay]

men can oppress you just by being men over the interent?
What is it, the Lynx effect?

Surely anonymous posting over an internet forum is pretty much the epitomy of equal debate?

So if a bunch of people who have identified themselves in their posts as men start shouting down women, complaining that they are being discriminated against and generally rubbishing a demonstration on various tenuous grounds then this is 'non-oppressive and neutral debate' is it? Get real.

 

[TeeJay]

...I think the 'why concentrate on a public space march when rape is primarily domestic/known perp.' line is way off the mark. As I understand it, back in the 70s/early 80s, the idea of these kind of marches was to react against violence certainly. But they were also about responding to police advice that women should keep off the streets after dark, or only go out with male escorts. The marches are, literally, about reclaiming the night back from that kind of notion - and a positive feeling of collective power. The % of attacks carried out by actual strangers is irrelevant...

There is also the fact that by making women dependant on male 'escorts' this probably increases the amount of abuse at home: once men are made to feel they are the protectors and defenders - it is only a shirt step to some of them thinking they are the 'owners' and have every right to demand sex from those who they protect. In other words the two issues are linked.

 

[TeeJay]

thats not the political message they are putting out now, its very much about the politics of fear from what ive read of their prop

they say that are are marching down streets theyd to be scared to walk down at night

frankly, anyone male or female whos too scared to walk through the west end at night is a wuss

So you are saying that they have no right to feel fear? That this fear is bogus? Sorry but that is incoherent - you have no way of knowing how scared someone could feel if they had previously been assulated/attacked/raped/beaten up, or if they knew people who had been.

It sounds like you pride yourself on being a tough and street-wise 'playa' and think that anyone who isn't as tough or fear-immune as you is a 'wuss'. Sorry maye but you have been corrupted by so long living in the metropolis that you accept all sorts of shit as "normal" - the kinds of things that noone anywhere should have to accept or put up with in reality.

It is only when you have lived for a while in places which don't have high crime rates, are not generally violent or dirty or heaving with social problems that you relaise a better life is not just possible but that we should be demanding it as a right.

I bet you don't apply your same logic of "put up with and shut up" to issues such as poverty or police violence, do you?

How would you respond if I told you you were a 'wuss' if and when you complained about being constantly stopped by the police or maybe given thne occasional kicking?

I can just imagne the amount of self-righteous rage you would apply to denouncing these things as unacceptable. Funny that you refuse to apply the same logic to this issue. Why is that?

 

[trashpony]

Isn't it great how so many blokes who would staunchly defend any other oppressed group's right to organise independently of their oppressors feel it's their right - nay duty - to rubbish this?

And yet they'd be the first to jump down anyone's throat if they were attacking a worker's or a muslim's right to march and organise on their own terms.

But hey - feminism isn't cool anymore is it?

 

[In Bloom]

Bloody men, can't keep their promises, the bastards

I know I said I wasn't going to post on this again, but this:

Isn't it great how so many blokes who would staunchly defend any other oppressed group's right to organise independently of their oppressors feel it's their right - nay duty - to rubbish this?

And yet they'd be the first to jump down anyone's throat if they were attacking a worker's or a muslim's right to march and organise on their own terms.

But hey - feminism isn't cool anymore is it?

Is just out of order.

I'm getting really fucking sick of a few posters on here making these snide little accusations of sexism. Back it up or shut the fuck up.