Is America heading towards dictatorship?

[Pickman's model]

I don’t think he’s a Hitler, he’s not clever enough. He has no respect for America or anyone, even his family. He’s only interested in himself. His only strategy is to make money. Useful idiot to the right though but he doesn’t care. So long as he’s praised and making money.

So so many people are just anticipating his desires and voting for him and that because he's a useful idiot for the right. He's someone else's tool, you're saying. Whose tool is he?

Your conspiralunacy is greater than I expected.

 

[Coffeecup]

So so many people are just anticipating his desires and voting for him and that because he's a useful idiot for the right. He's someone else's tool, you're saying. Whose tool is he?

Your conspiralunacy is greater than I expected.

Did you have an argument with the midwife when you were born?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Trump has a remarkably strong position with the Republican control of the legislative houses and the supreme court. So effectively I expect he is going to be able to some extent, and will certainly try to, dictate. As many of his supporters want him to. I don't fully expect it to happen so quickly and smoothly though.

He was elected largely due to dissatisfaction with living standards and cost of living. Another reference to Nazi Germany: Hitler was able to gradually assume dictatorship by having popular support through providing bread and work, tapping into national grievance and posing as national saviour. Building a cult of personality. If further economic shocks are felt by the lower middle class and working class, what happens then? It largely depends on a group of ambitious politicians singing from the same hymn sheet and an impressively determined legislature taking a sledgehammer to their own grasp on power before, possibly, a different balance after the mid-terms. I guess we are all going to find out soon enough though.

Again, though, the comparisons are tenuous at best. By 1933, the Germany economy was in ruins as the Great Depression crushed an already shaky system. Six million people were out of work.

The context for the rise of fascism in 1930s Europe just doesn't fit the present-day US. The cost of living crisis of the last couple of years was on an entirely different scale from the Depression of the 30s. The US economy is doing fine at the macro level. The iniquitous distribution of wealth within that economy is the cause of the hardship at the ground level. That's a structural issue rather than a systemic collapse. And let's not forget that the majority of the poorest people in the US (those with household incomes under $30,000 per year) voted against Trump.

 

[Humberto]

The whole or even the majority of Americans aren't Maga. Although there is to some extent a cult of personality, it's puncturable at this stage. It's going to be shit and rough on certain sectors, I think it is easy to forsee, but you can't turn a liberal democracy (for all its flaws) into a Stalin or Hitler regime overnight in this context without spilling a lot of blood (i.e. doing it through force). Are we at that stage?

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

This is no surprise given the nature of Blackrock and others in the financial sector. Blackrock, among others, is leaving a climate-investor group that has been targeted by Republicans with threats of investigations and other tactics to get them to drop out. It's just another group of monied people seeing which way the wind is blowing:

(Bloomberg) -- BlackRock Inc. is parting ways with one of the world’s biggest climate-investor groups after being targeted by Republican politicians for its efforts on global warming.

The money manager has decided to leave the Net Zero Asset Managers initiative, it said in a letter to clients on Thursday. Membership in the group “caused confusion regarding BlackRock’s practices and subjected us to legal inquiries from various public officials,” the New York-based firm said.

BlackRock, which oversees more than $11 trillion, has been the subject of attacks from GOP lawmakers for embracing what conservatives call “woke” policies. Most recently, BlackRock was among a group of asset managers singled out in a lawsuit led by Texas alleging breaches of antitrust laws due to the adoption of pro-climate strategies that suppress coal production.

And with President-elect Donald Trump headed for the White House, Wall Street is bracing for more attacks on climate finance.

“BlackRock has hung in there as long as it could, but the pressure has become too great, and the reputational and legal risks too high, just before Trump takes office,” Hortense Bioy, head of sustainable investing research at Morningstar Sustainalytics, said in an emailed comment. And it “won’t be the last financial organization to quit a net zero initiative,” she said.

BlackRock was mentioned, along with firms including State Street Corp. and Vanguard Group Inc., in a report last month from the House Judiciary Committee that said it found “evidence of collusion and anticompetitive behavior” by the financial industry to “impose radical ESG-goals” on US companies.

Over the past month, a climate coalition for lenders, the Net-Zero Banking Alliance, has seen a mass exodus of US members. Since early December, NZBA lost Goldman Sachs Group Inc., Wells Fargo & Co., Citigroup Inc., Bank of America Corp., Morgan Stanley and JPMorgan Chase & Co.

MSN

Does any of these people have a moral center, however small? Do they have backbones or do they just blow with the prevailing wind?

 

[spring-peeper]

This is no surprise given the nature of Blackrock and others in the financial sector. Blackrock, among others, is leaving a climate-investor group that has been targeted by Republicans with threats of investigations and other tactics to get them to drop out. It's just another group of monied people seeing which way the wind is blowing:

MSN

Does any of these people have a moral center, however small? Do they have backbones or do they just blow with the prevailing wind?

I see it more as self-preservation.

 

[Pickman's model]

The whole or even the majority of Americans aren't Maga. Although there is to some extent a cult of personality, it's puncturable at this stage. It's going to be shit and rough on certain sectors, I think it is easy to forsee, but you can't turn a liberal democracy (for all its flaws) into a Stalin or Hitler regime overnight in this context without spilling a lot of blood (i.e. doing it through force). Are we at that stage?

When was the United States a liberal democracy?

 

[Humberto]

When was the United States a liberal democracy?

Free speech/press, elections, that kind of thing isn't it?

 

[andysays]

When was the United States a liberal democracy?

21st November 1963

 

[Pickman's model]

Free speech/press, elections, that kind of thing isn't it?

When? Not what.

 

[Pickman's model]

21st November 1963

In the afternoon?

 

[andysays]

In the afternoon?

For the whole day - it was a Thursday.

(the assassination of JFK was the following day)

 

[Pickman's model]

(the assassination of JFK was the following day)

I did get that reference

 

[Humberto]

When? Not what.

Up to the point if/when it isn't anymore, and becomes dictatorship. Such is the thread title's question. A flawed one, as I said.

 

[Pickman's model]

Up to the point if/when it isn't anymore, and becomes dictatorship. Such is the thread title's question. A flawed one, as I said.

That's rather a cop-out

 

[Humberto]

That's rather a cop-out

A cop-out? I answered your question. The US is currently a liberal democracy. Might not be for much longer.

 

[Pickman's model]

A cop-out? I answered your question. The US is currently a liberal democracy. Might not be for much longer.

Answering the question does not mean the answer's not a cop-out. I'd consider the United States a polity with the trappings but not substance of a democracy.

 

[Humberto]

Answering the question does not mean the answer's not a cop-out. I'd consider the United States a polity with the trappings but not substance of a democracy.

A cop out would be avoiding the question. Answering the question is not a cop out.

 

[Pickman's model]

A cop out would be avoiding the question. Answering the question is not a cop out.

I asked when was you said until it's not. That's a cop-out - from when do you consider the US an ld?

But for me it's never been a liberal democracy in that the political participation of major sections of the population, especially African Americans, has not only not been welcomed throughout society but actively discouraged

 

[DotCommunist]

Again, though, the comparisons are tenuous at best. By 1933, the Germany economy was in ruins as the Great Depression crushed an already shaky system. Six million people were out of work.

The context for the rise of fascism in 1930s Europe just doesn't fit the present-day US. The cost of living crisis of the last couple of years was on an entirely different scale from the Depression of the 30s. The US economy is doing fine at the macro level. The iniquitous distribution of wealth within that economy is the cause of the hardship at the ground level. That's a structural issue rather than a systemic collapse. And let's not forget that the majority of the poorest people in the US (those with household incomes under $30,000 per year) voted against Trump.

the humiliation of the 'slightly better than carthaginian' peace of versailles, the military defeat even after charnel houses like verdun- all that feeding into the resentment of the freikorps and so on. Where was americas verdun? and losing after 20 yrs in afghanistan might sting a bit but its not the same level.

 

[Humberto]

I asked when was you said until it's not. That's a cop-out - from when do you consider the US an ld?

But for me it's never been a liberal democracy in that the political participation of major sections of the population, especially African Americans, has not only not been welcomed throughout society but actively discouraged

Fair enough. Lets say the current Biden admin. Many of the trappings of ld: independent judiciary, elected to power, independent media outlets. That's rather different to dictatorship, I think there's a distinction.

 

[Cloo]

I just think of Trump's politics as being 'Donald Trump'. He thinks he's rich because he's smarter than everyone else, so sure everything would be better with him in charge (like his pal Elon). He's the only person to be smart enough to think of getting rid of all the immigrants, and then there will be more jobs for Americans and Americans will do all those jobs instead of being unemployed and everything will be better and everyone will be so grateful to Donald J Trump.

Abortion, transphobia and homophobic rhetoric is by-the-by, he doesn't really give a rat's ass about those things one way or another, but they seem to help.

Oh, and he'll make all these people who made trouble for him pay.

 

[Coffeecup]

I asked when was you said until it's not. That's a cop-out - from when do you consider the US an ld?

But for me it's never been a liberal democracy in that the political participation of major sections of the population, especially African Americans, has not only not been welcomed throughout society but actively discouraged

Every Democratic country chooses their form of Democracy through the electorate. Many Democracies are not the same as it’s open to interpretation. Democracy has never been defined as it evolves according to human evolution. America has their version and has changed over time like other Democracies.

 

[Pickman's model]

Every Democratic country chooses their form of Democracy through the electorate. Many Democracies are not the same as it’s open to interpretation. Democracy has never been defined as it evolves according to human evolution. America has their version and has changed over time like other Democracies.

I'd have argued with the midwife if she'd have been a platitudinous conspiraloon like you

Oh and democracy has been defined as a glance in any half-decent dictionary will reveal. What is this bollocks about democracy and evolution? Are you honestly saying that the Greeks of 2500 years ago were less evolved than modern homo sapiens?

 

[Coffeecup]

I'd have argued with the midwife if she'd have been a platitudinous conspiraloon like you

Oh and democracy has been defined as a glance in any half-decent dictionary will reveal. What is this bollocks about democracy and evolution? Are you honestly saying that the Greeks of 2500 years ago were less evolved than modern homo sapiens?

There’s always room for a Victor Meldrew everywhere.

If we haven’t evolved in the last 2,500 years then someone is lying.

 

[Pickman's model]

There’s always room for a Victor Meldrew everywhere.

If we haven’t evolved in the last 2,500 years then someone is lying.

You're more one foot in the gravy than one foot in the grave

 

[Coffeecup]

You're more one foot in the gravy than one foot in the grave

You little imp, how did you think that one up?

Define Democracy for me?

 

[PTK]

Free speech/press, elections, that kind of thing isn't it?

Like when actors, screenwriters, and directors were not employed, and ordinary working class people lost their jobs, and foreign-born people were deported because of their political views?

 

[Saul Goodman]

Define Democracy for me?

It's where you get a say in which set of self-serving twats you'd like to take your money and give it to those who least need it.

 

[PTK]

21st November 1963

Black people were denied the vote in Southern states at the time, so the USA could not have been a democracy.