Is Advertising, fuelling dislike of the West?

[kyser_soze]

Note to OP: According to the women in my family, Gucci is for the "I wannabe rich but can't afford it but when I walk around with the ugly big Gucci advertising (for free)people must think I am".
Note 2: Admire Armani. That is art which is a bit different from "fashion".

No it isn't - it's just your subjective taste WRT Armani vs Dior. It's still all 'fashion'. The main difference is that Dior, along with Louis Vuitton, Gucci, & probably Versace have, in this world of the super-affluent, over-exposed themselves to the point that what were once truly élite brands have become commodified, especially with the rise of the diffusion ranges (stuff like belts, wallets, handbags) which still sell for a substanial premium because of the brand, but do nothing to keep it exclusive.

Besides, if the skimpy, skinny models aren't appreciated, Chanel, Gucci and Dior all do designer niqabs, burkhas and other Islam-friendly clothing for men and women.

On the consumerism angle...large chunks of the ME have always been consumerist cos of the trade routes...hell, go back to the times of the Caliphates and you find an example of an almost global trading empire, with goods from WEstern Europe, Africa, ME, Caucauses & India and China all being bought, sold and moved around - this idea that the ME has been 'polluted' by consumerism is bollocks.

 

[fredfelt]

I used to find it weird that in cultures that are prominently non white that often white models are used for advertising.

A few years back I was chatting to a local who worked in a restaurant in a tourist area in Lombock, Indonisia. She wanted white skin, and died her skin accordingly in the hope that she would be more beautiful. I was quite shocked by this.

But the two somehow fit together. In an area that is poor in terms of consumer goods the west is the land of plenty. Advertising tries to profit on this and uses white skin as a shorthand for access to wealth, happiness and consumer goods. Naturally the advertising is used to fuel an aspiration for consumer goods.

So to answer your question for those that are able to buy into some of the western lifestyle through consumer goods it’s ‘progress’ and a lifestyle to strive towards. Obviously the consumer culture is not accessible or desirable to everyone so it can also provoke.

I too find lifestyle sell ugly, more ugly when the lifestyle presented does not match with my lifestyle idea. However I do find it interesting that in the West the lifestyle culture of advertising is much more sophisticated as the west is much more media savy. In, shall we say the majority of the world, lifestyle advertising can be much more blatant.

 

[kyser_soze]

Yeah, the link between owning a product and the enhancement to ones sexual prowess, social standing or whatever is WAY more pronounced - to the point that if you're a Westerner it can be quite funny...it's like looking at cig ads from the 50s showing people running up mountains with a tab, or those old style 'Dr Moxlobs Patent Elixir Vitae'

 

[Aldebaran]

No it isn't - it's just your subjective taste WRT Armani vs Dior. It's still all 'fashion'.

Obviously you never saw anything else from Armani signature than clothing and acessories, which of course largely fall under "fashion".

Besides, if the skimpy, skinny models aren't appreciated, Chanel, Gucci and Dior all do designer niqabs, burkhas and other Islam-friendly clothing for men and women.

They do? I never asked. What is in any case far more common is to have them tailored locally (do you know how many shades of black and of white there are, and in what a vast range of fabric they come?) and wear the Chanel etc... under them.

On the consumerism angle...large chunks of the ME have always been consumerist cos of the trade routes...hell, go back to the times of the Caliphates and you find an example of an almost global trading empire, with goods from WEstern Europe, Africa, ME, Caucauses & India and China all being bought, sold and moved around - this idea that the ME has been 'polluted' by consumerism is bollocks.

The idea is not that trade should be regarded as wrong and trade isn't necessarily inducing consumerism, let alone in the Western Capitalist sense. You might want to look up some obvious existing cultural differences. (I mentioned some of it in my thread "Islam and suicidal terrorism: Analyzing connections).

salaam.

 

[kyser_soze]

Consumerism isn't something that's culturally different - there will be different trends within specific cultures along local lines, but consumerism - the purchase of goods and services which are not required for basic sustenance and living requirements - is a human universal and has been for millenia. A Roman buying a set of well made goblets thru to someone shopping in Dubai are still doing the same thing - buying for non-survival reasons. All that's changed is that consuerism historically was only the élites because they were the only ones to have the surplus income (and social need) required to be consumers, whereas now EVERYONE has the chance to buy shite.

 

[fredfelt]

Consumerism isn't something that's culturally different - there will be different trends within specific cultures along local lines, but consumerism - the purchase of goods and services which are not required for basic sustenance and living requirements - is a human universal and has been for millenia. A Roman buying a set of well made goblets thru to someone shopping in Dubai are still doing the same thing - buying for non-survival reasons. All that's changed is that consuerism historically was only the élites because they were the only ones to have the surplus income (and social need) required to be consumers, whereas now EVERYONE has the chance to buy shite.

Yes, conspicious consumption, or consumerism can be seen as an export from the West. As advertising is a vehicle for conspious consumption if your ideals are contra to 'western values' then it seems obvious that advertising will fuel a negative reaction.

 

[Fruitloop]

You'll be surprised to learn that I don't agree.

Consumerism implies that people identify with the objects of their consumption, which I don't think there is any evidence that people in classical times did. Simply having stuff (even if it's 'excess' stuff) is consumption, not consumerism.

Veblen is the critic par excellence of the consumer society IMO.

 

[nino_savatte]

Consumerism isn't something that's culturally different - there will be different trends within specific cultures along local lines, but consumerism - the purchase of goods and services which are not required for basic sustenance and living requirements - is a human universal and has been for millenia. A Roman buying a set of well made goblets thru to someone shopping in Dubai are still doing the same thing - buying for non-survival reasons. All that's changed is that consuerism historically was only the élites because they were the only ones to have the surplus income (and social need) required to be consumers, whereas now EVERYONE has the chance to buy shite.

I would add that, since the 1920's or thereabouts, the retail sector has been seen as an essential component of a nation's economy.

 

[kyser_soze]

What, so you don't think that those in classical times bought clothing, cutlery etc to impress others, and to make a statement about themselves, to include it in their sense of self? That the clasical world was nothing more than functionalism?

 

[nino_savatte]

You'll be surprised to learn that I don't agree.

Consumerism implies that people identify with the objects of their consumption, which I don't think there is any evidence that people in classical times did. Simply having stuff (even if it's 'excess' stuff) is consumption, not consumerism.

Veblen is the critic par excellence of the consumer society IMO.

Aye, we see this reflected in the "lifestyle" classifications that are now used by marketing peeps.

 

[Aldebaran]

Consumerism isn't something that's culturally different - there will be different trends within specific cultures along local lines, but consumerism - the purchase of goods and services which are not required for basic sustenance and living requirements - is a human universal and has been for millenia. A Roman buying a set of well made goblets thru to someone shopping in Dubai are still doing the same thing - buying for non-survival reasons. All that's changed is that consuerism historically was only the élites because they were the only ones to have the surplus income (and social need) required to be consumers, whereas now EVERYONE has the chance to buy shite.

The difference between earlier time periods and today however is that under the pressure and needs of the Capitalist Ideology consumerism has become the equivalent of a Cult. A very agressive and all consuming cult at that, with far too often catastrophic results for those who get brainwashed into it, and in far too many cases severly affecting all who are close to them equally, or even worse.
That is the objection of those who perceive this agressively imported cult and its direct impact on their lives and culture as the cause of everything that goes wrong.

salaam.

 

[nino_savatte]

What, so you don't think that those in classical times bought clothing, cutlery etc to impress others, and to make a statement about themselves, to include it in their sense of self? That the clasical world was nothing more than functionalism?

Is this for me? Edward Bernays, the father of the PR industry, suggested that the reason why wars began was because people were "unhappy". In order to make people happy, he argued that the masses should be allowed to consume what they wanted. So, in the period following WWI, the range and variety of goods increased, as did the effort to push these goods onto the public. One must never underestimate the effect of the advertising industry here, which is charged with the responsibility of selling commodities to the public that they don't really need. This did not exist in the classical world.

 

[kyser_soze]

Nah, directed at Fruitloop.

agressively imported cult

Enthusiastically received cult is another way of describing it. Cult which enabled people to buy in a way that didn't make them feel guilty about not being thrifty or parsimonious.

Don't get me wrong - I agree with what you say about it becoming a cult under contemporary capitalism, and the socially detrimental effects that it has everywhere (even back in the 70s my Nan would always bang on about how 'stuff today isn't made to last or be repaired, only replaced') and the deleterious effects of the 'throwaway culture' on the environment (atho again, this is an example of something that was once a privilege of élites opened up to the mass - history is littered with examples of rulers etc who would only use something once before it was destroyed)

The primary split between consumerism in the classical world and consumerism in the C20th is in scale and scope - where once only élites could afford, or indeed have the social need to use purchased goods to create an image for themselves, industrialisation changed that so that initially the new middle classes could start buying Wedgewood, which then expanded out even further to the potential for everyone to own a car or whatever.

What advertising succeeded in doing (because ads for anything have always promised you'll be a better person for buying X or Y product) was in convincing that new mass of consumers that not only could that live like the Kings of old, but that as part of the modern world it was their RIGHT to live like that - check out the copywriting in US ads in the 20s, it all perfectly captured that post-war zeitgeist of modernity, of a brave new world being made daily, one fridge and one car at a time.

TBH Bernays had little idea of the history of his own discipline - I've read him and nowhere does he talk about how early, non-mass media cultures used PR to variously shore up monarchies, manipulate religious belief etc. One thing I found during my time working in advertising was that very few people understood that every way we sold, the messages all of it have historical antecedents that go back centuries, be it corporate sponsoship of the arts (the Catholic Chruch and Medici's being excellent examples) to the most basic - and best - form of PR, the personal recommendation.

 

[Aldebaran]

Enthusiastically received cult is another way of describing it.

That is your perception. For my part the Mc Donald's and Coca Cola Cult can vanish from the earth. Together with all that comes to it in the form of agressive Western focussed advertising everywhere you look and go.

You also seem to under-estimate the entirely new kind of divisions in societies whihc the Consumer Cult creates.
The reason these new divisions arose lies precisely in the fact that the masses didn't magically become elites because they were - and are - agressively invited to buy more goods than previously, and more than they actually could/can afford at that. Introduction of the debt culture is only an other devastating aspect of the Capitalist Cult.

salaam.

 

[kyser_soze]

What, so they can be replaced with Mecca Cola and Al-Halals? Local brands for local people?

As for your 2nd paragraph...I've lived in precisely the consumer society that you're saying is a new thing my entire life, so I'm perfectly aware of the divisions it creates.

The other thing is you sound exactly like a certain school of old Tory in the UK - debts a bad thing, conspicuous consumption is bad etc, everything was better before 'they' (can be any 'they') came along...

 

[Fruitloop]

The difference in classical society was that your social status was predetermined and placed (sometimes legal) limits on your consumption, therefore there was no way to consume your way to higher social status.

Lacking a system of branding, luxury good also only represented what they themselves were, they didn't take part in a wider discourse of brand signification.

 

[Aldebaran]

What, so they can be replaced with Mecca Cola and Al-Halals? Local brands for local people?

Aha, Mecca Cola. Not that bad but in fact rubbish
Never saw an Al Halal (new business opportunity looms).

I have no idea about UK politics but yes - and especially on a personal level - debt is without question a bad thing (and if you are in debt, no question that "before" was better) and should not be encouraged. Let alone as agressively as the Capitalist Cult does, only to lure people into buying what they already have or/and don't need to have.
That careless, useless mentality of over-consumption and over-producing irritates me endlessly. Even if you only want a simple toothpaste you are bombarded with flashing advertising for the same in a different package, all coming from within the same brand. How on earth is all this contributing to anything else than the survival of the Capitalist Consumer Cult?

salaam.

 

[Dr_Herbz]

Aha, Mecca Cola. Not that bad but in fact rubbish
Never saw an Al Halal (new business opportunity looms).

I have no idea about UK politics but yes - and especially on a personal level - debt is without question a bad thing (and if you are in debt, no question that "before" was better) and should not be encouraged. Let alone as agressively as the Capitalist Cult does, only to lure people into buying what they already have or/and don't need to have.
That careless, useless mentality of over-consumption and over-producing irritates me endlessly. Even if you only want a simple toothpaste you are bombarded with flashing advertising for the same in a different package, all coming from within the same brand. How on earth is all this contributing to anything else than the survival of the Capitalist Consumer Cult?

salaam.

How could people afford to buy a house without getting into debt? Are you suggesting we should all live in mud huts?

You also believe that when we go to a supermarket, that we shouldn't have any choice in what we buy?

I find that a little strange and if I could be arsed, I'd ask what clothes and electronics equipment you own... but I can't be.

 

[Aldebaran]

How could people afford to buy a house without getting into debt? Are you suggesting we should all live in mud huts?

How many people buy houses they actually can't afford = create a debt that shall in the end makes them home-less instead of home-owning?

You also believe that when we go to a supermarket, that we shouldn't have any choice in what we buy?

Excellent. The True Consumer's reaction. You are tricked into believing that ridiculous excessive "choice" in consumer goods is "part of your freedom" and even your "right".

salaam.

 

[Dr_Herbz]

If we didn't have choice, you wouldn't be sat in front of that computer.

 

[Aldebaran]

If we didn't have choice, you wouldn't be sat in front of that computer.

Of course I would. I would have the one that is available.

salaam.

 

[Dr_Herbz]

What makes you think there would be one available and at a price you could afford?

 

[Fruitloop]

Why wouldn't there be?

It's worth bearing in mind that the vast majority of the world's population can't afford one right now.

 

[Aldebaran]

What makes you think there would be one available and at a price you could afford?

Because
a) if not invented we wouldn't be talking about it while writing on one
b) money no issue
c) used to get what I want



salaam.

 

[Dr_Herbz]

Developing countries would probably never have access to computers if the people who can afford the newest model weren't given that choice.

How technologically advanced would the world be if the ZX80 was our only choice?

 

[Aldebaran]

It's worth bearing in mind that the vast majority of the world's population can't afford one right now.

Or anything else the Capitalist Cult so agressively pushes onto them while they can only look at it and - in some cases - adopt the wrong path to get it.

salaam.

 

[Aldebaran]

Developing countries would probably never have access to computers if the people who can afford the newest model weren't given that choice.

So actively support for the developing world means consumption of the latest technological toy while throwing the last-latest away?

How technologically advanced would the world be if the ZX80 was our only choice?

See how un-technologically non-advanced I am. What on earth is the ZX80?

salaam.

 

[Dr_Herbz]

So actively support for the developing world means consumption of the latest technological toy while throwing the last-latest away?

Yes, all my old computers are shipped to third world countries.
As new models are released, the price of the older technology drops within the reach of the people who cannot afford the new models, surely you can see how this would make sense?

See how un-technologically non-advanced I am. What on earth is the ZX80?

salaam.

 

[Aldebaran]

Yes, all my old computers are shipped to third world countries.

That is a commendable attitude.

As new models are released, the price of the older technology drops within the reach of the people who cannot afford the new models, surely you can see how this would make sense?

I don't mix up development of technology with useless excessive production of the result thereof. Nor do I look beyond the ultimate goal: to force the consumer - even subconsciously - to buy the latest model because the - also new - X or Y application doesn't work at the older ones. Modern version of old commercial tricks on a scale never seen before in history.

That image looks like a screen from an old movie. Is that Alien Import?

salaam.

 

[tim]

I used to find it weird that in cultures that are prominently non white that often white models are used for advertising.

A few years back I was chatting to a local who worked in a restaurant in a tourist area in Lombock, Indonisia. She wanted white skin, and died her skin accordingly in the hope that she would be more beautiful. I was quite shocked by this.

Yes, because it would be unthinkable for Europeans to put their health at risk to change thye pigmentation of their skin.