Iraq on brink of Civil War?

[Barking_Mad]

Much of this depends on how broad the definition of 'civil war' is and who is using it. There has most definately in my view been a relatively low-level civil war in Iraq for many, many months and it certainly seems to have been building up over that time, the media have chosen to ignore it on the basis that its a 'non-story' in the sense that there's 'not enough' people dying and it can be put down to other factors. I won't be surprised to heat it called something else by the US and UK. 'Civil War' won't look good on news headlines...

i feel sure that US have enough troops on the ground to hold the border north of Baghdad and to flush the civilian war south. what do you think?

It will be a blood bath on all sides. I doubt the US will have anywhere near enough troops.

 

[tangentlama]

are the US managing to hold Al Anbar?

 

[slaar]

That doesn't matter in the context of the US occupation of Iraq and the US wishes to tear Iran into it.

This is not only barbaric destruction of an irreplacable historical site (and we all know what the uneducated culture barbarian US cowboys did to Babylon and other cites).
This is clearly a barbaric vandalism with no other aim then finally inciting the start of civil war in Iraq, inciting Iranians to flood overthere to mix themselves into it. I can already imagine the criminal US government's "speaches" and "accusations" and other war mongering rethoric.

I can't be convinced that this could be the work of Muslims, let alone Iraqis. Westerners simply have not one bit of a clue what this site means and represents for Shia Islam. Since the criminal invasion and occupation of Iraq started I was afraid that something like this would happen.
Well, now they have it. Don't blame Muslims if this starts a wave of violence that can't be put under control. If you think you saw something in the aftermath of the cartoon idiocy...

But you don't have to live in the midsts of it, do you. You don't see your whole region - and in fact your whole religion - set in flames by arrogant US cowboys "defending" their "freedom" to control and exploit what their greedy selfish hunger for cheap oil wants them to control and exploit" , do you. You are not affected by it at all.

I would hope that the US dollar would drop one day like a stone to teach all of the arrogant greedy US'ers a good lesson, no matter the world wide economical consesuences. I can take my financial losses then...Easily.
Could you? Or would you call for invasion of every nation that drops it support for your blood sucked currency?

salaam.

Frankly, it could be anybody. False flag ops, sheer rage, setting up to create more violence and achieve spurious long-run goals of destabilisation by any number of agencies, not limited to Islamic splinter groups, Iraqi nationalists, Iraqi sectarian groups, Shia-Sunni grievances, Western spooks, foreign Jihadis. Without any proof, it's all just conjecture though, bearing in mind it's basically one huge fucking mess.

 

[Aldebaran]

Frankly, it could be anybody. False flag ops, sheer rage, setting up to create more violence and achieve spurious long-run goals of destabilisation by any number of agencies, not limited to Islamic splinter groups, Iraqi nationalists, Iraqi sectarian groups, Shia-Sunni grievances, Western spooks, foreign Jihadis. Without any proof, it's all just conjecture though, bearing in mind it's basically one huge fucking mess.

No. It is of the same order of magnitude as blowing up the Kaaba in Mecca or the Dome of the Rock (as it is called in the West) in Jerusalem.
= This is a very specifically chosen targettted attack aiming to incite the whole population of Shia Muslims. Not only in Iraq, not only in Iran. In the entire world.
I'm not going to speculate here who is behind this yet I have my own ideas and I'm about sure history shall give me right.

salaam.

 

[dylanredefined]

Every bomb which went off in Basra one day when I was there .Was blamed by rumour control and certain immans on rockets fired by us from the palace .It gave a us a morning of unpleastness till everyone realised no one had seen any rockets ever .The sas guys were not dressed as bombers or
mistaken for them .
As the plan is now to get the hell out of dodge soonist why would the west want to blow up a mosque ?Sunni &shite are happily killing each other given half a chance without encouragement from any dodgy black ops .

 

[Barking_Mad]

are the US managing to hold Al Anbar?

Well that depends on how you define as 'hold'. If you mean "Are US troops being over-run in Al-Anbar" then the answer is no. If you mean "Are US troops facing attacks in Al-Anbar" then the answer is yes. There have been an increasing number of attacks in Fallujah itself over the past few months, despite the US's attempts to monitor and control who goes in and out of the city.

 

[Barking_Mad]

Just an observation on the media coverage of this - watch out for how they frame the killing of people since the attack on the shrine. For instance Yahoo News (amongst others) has the headline - "53 people killed since attack on Shia Shrine" - now some of those attacks may well have been related to the shrine attack, indeed all of them may be, but since roughly 1,000 people a month are dying of violent deaths in Baghdad alone, its misleading and presumptious to blame this one attack on all deaths that follow it.

Danger is that this is one of those events which scoops up all of those who die after it and puts them in one handy "Dead as a result of the Shrine attack" soundbite.

 

[slaar]

No. It is of the same order of magnitude as blowing up the Kaaba in Mecca or the Dome of the Rock (as it is called in the West) in Jerusalem.
= This is a very specifically chosen targettted attack aiming to incite the whole population of Shia Muslims. Not only in Iraq, not only in Iran. In the entire world.
I'm not going to speculate here who is behind this yet I have my own ideas and I'm about sure history shall give me right.

salaam.

Crazed, brainwashed foreign Jihadis have much more to gain from a world-wide blow up of Shia sentiment than the occupying forces.

 

[Aldebaran]

As the plan is now to get the hell out of dodge soonist why would the west want to blow up a mosque ?Sunni &shite are happily killing each other given half a chance without encouragement from any dodgy black ops .

It is normal that not everyone can look at this with the intuition and instinct of a historian.

To get some idea:
Ask yourself the obvious question where the gain is and hence for whom it is a gain, when Iraq goes further down into the hell it is already pushed into and when in addition Iran is teared into the mess.
To be able to ask such questions you must first be able to discern some of the truths behind this whole invasion and furthermore what really lies behind the US rethoric against Iran.

salaam.

 

[Crispy]

I see where you're heading Aldebaran, but surely Iraqi oil is at its hardest to pump when the country is in the grip of violent civil war? At the end of the day, it's not the profits of the oil companies that matter the most - it's price at the gas station and the electricity meter that matters most.

 

[Aldebaran]

Crazed, brainwashed foreign Jihadis have much more to gain from a world-wide blow up of Shia sentiment than the occupying forces.

No, that is what crazy Western (read:US/UK) rethoric wants you to believe.
Not saying that it 100% impossible that some lunatics indeed did this, lunatics have no clue about what they actually do but what it means in their own twisted mind.
Yet seen the nature of this attack combined with its timing, it is not an obvious target for lunatics, but a very well reasoned, premididated target for someone who knows exactly what he is doing. Hence I give that a 99,99 % on the possibility rate.

salaam.

 

[phildwyer]

To get some idea:
Ask yourself the obvious question where the gain is and hence for whom it is a gain, when Iraq goes further down into the hell it is already pushed into and when in addition Iran is teared into the mess.

Only one country benefits from such a scenario, as far as I can see, and it ain't the US or the UK. Do you want to name it?

 

[mears]

That doesn't matter in the context of the US occupation of Iraq and the US wishes to tear Iran into it.

This is not only barbaric destruction of an irreplacable historical site (and we all know what the uneducated culture barbarian US cowboys did to Babylon and other cites).
This is clearly a barbaric vandalism with no other aim then finally inciting the start of civil war in Iraq, inciting Iranians to flood overthere to mix themselves into it. I can already imagine the criminal US government's "speaches" and "accusations" and other war mongering rethoric.

I can't be convinced that this could be the work of Muslims, let alone Iraqis. Westerners simply have not one bit of a clue what this site means and represents for Shia Islam. Since the criminal invasion and occupation of Iraq started I was afraid that something like this would happen.
Well, now they have it. Don't blame Muslims if this starts a wave of violence that can't be put under control. If you think you saw something in the aftermath of the cartoon idiocy...


But you don't have to live in the midsts of it, do you. You don't see your whole region - and in fact your whole religion - set in flames by arrogant US cowboys "defending" their "freedom" to control and exploit what their greedy selfish hunger for cheap oil wants them to control and exploit" , do you. You are not affected by it at all.

I would hope that the US dollar would drop one day like a stone to teach all of the arrogant greedy US'ers a good lesson, no matter the world wide economical consesuences. I can take my financial losses then...Easily.
Could you? Or would you call for invasion of every nation that drops it support for your blood sucked currency?

salaam.

You are nuts. This was the work of Sunni extremeists or Islamic fundamentalists or both to spark civil war. They need a war because they have not formulated a future for Iraq. All they know is that they don't want a "western" democracy.

Iraqis will now have to work things out. Not blame America. Blameing America as you do feeds into the victimization mindset of Muslims. ALways someone keeping us down. Poor children

Well, the Taliban and Saddam Hussein were keeping Muslims down. But like a child you rather blame your problems on someone else.

 

[mears]

No, that is what crazy Western (read:US/UK) rethoric wants you to believe.
Not saying that it 100% impossible that some lunatics indeed did this, lunatics have no clue about what they actually do but what it means in their own twisted mind.
Yet seen the nature of this attack combined with its timing, it is not an obvious target for lunatics, but a very well reasoned, premididated target for someone who knows exactly what he is doing. Hence I give that a 99,99 % on the possibility rate.

salaam.

Than where should we go to get the truth if not that "crazy Western rhetoric"? Is there a newspaper or another media outlet you turn to in order to geth the real truth?

What do you read, or watch on the television that gives the real story?

 

[Crispy]

Only one country benefits from such a scenario, as far as I can see, and it ain't the US or the UK. Do you want to name it?

Please do draw back the velvet curtain and let us read the gilded wisdom!

 

[mears]

It is normal that not everyone can look at this with the intuition and instinct of a historian.

To get some idea:
Ask yourself the obvious question where the gain is and hence for whom it is a gain, when Iraq goes further down into the hell it is already pushed into and when in addition Iran is teared into the mess.
To be able to ask such questions you must first be able to discern some of the truths behind this whole invasion and furthermore what really lies behind the US rethoric against Iran.

salaam.

There is no question about it. Islamic radicals who are unable to formulate any vision of government, except some general talk about baseing everything around the Quaran. Since they have failed to present a constitution or form of government, there only hope is continued violence and mayhem.

 

[Aldebaran]

I see where you're heading Aldebaran, but surely Iraqi oil is at its hardest to pump when the country is in the grip of violent civil war? At the end of the day, it's not the profits of the oil companies that matter the most - it's price at the gas station and the electricity meter that matters most.

No no... You must take this broader and on a longer term.
Look at a sketchy, hence of course very superficial and of course totally incomplete background play of the main elements in the current ME/USA/Isreal game

First setting:

Combine PNAC ideas with --> invasion Iraq ---> plan: maintaining permanent US bases in Iraq = control natural resources secured + US military control of the region secured --> combined with (foolish ignorant) idea of so called "domino effect" + move against threat of the EURO + flooding of the region with US goods = US economy thrives + Israel secured --> failed completely --->US and Israel problem greater then it was.

Second setting

Add Iran ---> Oil bourse planned to open March 1 = EURO threat for the dollar more acute then it ever could be --->Russian influence and investments can't be overlooked. Chinese are not out of the picture either --> combined with stupid, US/Israel convenient rethoric against Israel (nothing new but USA/Israel both have a short memory when it suits them) + restart nuclear program, again showing the Russian influence --> US + Israel rethoric "Iranians aim at WMD"---> US desperately seeking UN support to add Iran to the list of PNAC scheme --> not an overwhelming sucess at the first round--> Question: How to tear Iran into the game as soon as possible?

Third setting:

Add to all the above: Palestine ---> Hamas victory --> shortsighted reactions of the EU (the reactions of Israel and the USA were of course predictable) --> Iran vows financial aid to Hamas --> some other regional governments ponder about it (some said it openly but that must be taken with a grain of salt, actually) ---> Hamas forced to become really political and has intentions to do so ---> Israel nor the USA have a clue how to solve this problem withouth invading once again the whole of the palestinian territory---> The problem with this is that the situation is quite different then some decades ago. (meaning: the outside world is no longer in the dark but alert and watching, with its nose right on it.)

Fourth setting

Saudis-->Great Friends of the USA, protectors of OPEC's Cheap Oil Flow--> Wahhabis scared as hell, because under pressure and possible in the future threatened if the Shia influence in the region becomes a politically underscored force both in Iran and Iraq --> USA in the same boat.

Now I leave it to your imagination which of all the parties involved has the most to gain if Iran and Iraq both can be derailed into the most volatile unstable place on earth on which then "of course" the USA "must" "restore order" and as a convenient side effect overthrow the "crazy ayatollahs" and replace with US benign puppet.

salaam.

 

[Barking_Mad]

You are nuts. This was the work of Sunni extremeists or Islamic fundamentalists or both to spark civil war. They need a war because they have not formulated a future for Iraq. All they know is that they don't want a "western" democracy.

Iraqis will now have to work things out. Not blame America. Blameing America as you do feeds into the victimization mindset of Muslims. ALways someone keeping us down. Poor children

Well, the Taliban and Saddam Hussein were keeping Muslims down. But like a child you rather blame your problems on someone else.

Notice how Mears now sees his little idelogical wank fantasy of Mr Bush's turning sour he blames the Iraqis.

One question Mears, were you warned about this and did you not choose to ignore it or tell people they were wrong? Given your record on this subject if I were you Id be very careful about who you call nuts, you stupid fool.

 

[Aldebaran]

Than where should we go to get the truth if not that "crazy Western rhetoric"? Is there a newspaper or another media outlet you turn to in order to geth the real truth?

What do you read, or watch on the television that gives the real story?

See, the main difference between myself and the average US'er is that I don't need "Media" to tell me how to reason.
I simply use my brain.

salaam.

 

[rogue yam]

Not saying that it 100% impossible that some lunatics indeed did this, lunatics have no clue about what they actually do but what it means in their own twisted mind.
Yet seen the nature of this attack combined with its timing, it is not an obvious target for lunatics, but a very well reasoned, premididated target for someone who knows exactly what he is doing. Hence I give that a 99,99 % on the possibility rate.0

I think you are being profoundly dishonest. The simple fact of the matter is that Sunni Muslims largely think that Shiite Muslims are apostates. So why wouldn't they kill and destroy them with no compunction? (Just like they ecstatically cut the throat of the Jew, Daniel Pearl?) There is an ongoing reality of vicious, ignorant Muslims spilling the blood of innocents and then dancing in it. We have all seen this. And yet you deny it. Why? Are you on some sort of jihad?

 

[ViolentPanda]

I think you are being profoundly dishonest. The simple fact of the matter is that Sunni Muslims largely think that Shiite Muslims are apostates. So why wouldn't they kill and destroy them with no compunction? (Just like they ecstatically cut the throat of the Jew, Daniel Pearl?) There is an ongoing reality of vicious, ignorant Muslims spilling the blood of innocents and then dancing in it. We have all seen this. And yet you deny it. Why? Are you on some sort of jihad?

Why the need to highlight the fact that Pearl was a Jew, and that his Killer was Muslim?

Your nasty Christian fundamentalist fuckwittery is showing again, along with your racism.

It's salutary that when you're unable to attack the substantive points that Aldaberan has made you trot out this kind of vileness.

 

[JHE]

Predictably enough, the Iranian President, Mahmoud Ah'madinnerjacket, blames Israel for the destruction of the mosque in Samarra.

 

[Aldebaran]

I think you are being profoundly dishonest. The simple fact of the matter is that Sunni Muslims largely think that Shiite Muslims are apostates.

Correction: They are looked at as deviating from the sunna. Just like the shia see the sunni as deviating for the correct teachings as transferred by and given example of by the Prophet.

So why wouldn't they kill and destroy them with no compunction?

We are not talking about "kill and destroy them". We are talking about a clearly premeditated destruction of a historical site that is as important to (shia) Islam as the kaaba is.

(Just like they ecstatically cut the throat of the Jew, Daniel Pearl?)

Where does this wild, completely unrelated remark fits in the picture of your vivid imagination?

There is an ongoing reality of vicious, ignorant Muslims spilling the blood of innocents and then dancing in it.

They dance in it? Are you talking about the US Cowboys dancing on and in it and trading pictures of such actions ... for example for access to porn sites and stuff?

We have all seen this.

I'm 100% sure you didn't even see 0,0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 % of what is really going on in Iraq.

And yet you deny it.

Deny what? There can't be any denial about the fact that history in full shaping mode can't be researched - hence perceived- in any of its details. Let alone that it could be researched - hence perceived - in any of its conflicting or prejudiced or independent sources, that need to be looked at coming from different angles and views before anyone can ever paint a picture of the grander scheme. Which is the first step into providing for a starting point for refinement and then for highlighting details.

Yet you claim to be able to know everything of what can't be - and shall not be - known for a few decades to come.
Amazing. Are you some sort of psychic alien?

Why?

Yes, why do you think you are a psychic alien?

Are you on some sort of jihad?

Of course, like every Muslim I live my jihad daily. Not always so succesful I'm afraid.
You should look up the definition of the word when not coming from ignorant Western "context" (we can't use the word "understanding" here, can we. Not even close.).

salaam.

 

[rogue yam]

Why the need to highlight the fact that Pearl was a Jew, and that his Killer was Muslim?

You are a liar and insane. Daniel Pearl's killers forced him to "admit" he was a Jew immediately before they hacked his head off with a knife. They, and only they, claimed that their savagery was an expression of their religion. You blame Muslim savagery and insanity on Christianity because you are a liar, because you are ignorant, and because you serve evil.

 

[Belushi]

and because you serve evil.

ROFLMAO

 

[rogue yam]

ROFLMAO

Well, you've managed to say something completely worthless. Do you have any other tricks?

 

[moono]

JHE;

Predictably enough, the Iranian President, Mahmoud Ah'madinnerjacket, blames Israel for the destruction of the mosque in Samarra.

I suppose that's in retaliation for America/Israel threatening to attack his civil power plants ? Expect the same from Syria, after getting blamed for the Hariri hit.

 

[Barking_Mad]

You are a liar and insane. Daniel Pearl's killers forced him to "admit" he was a Jew immediately before they hacked his head off with a knife. They, and only they, claimed that their savagery was an expression of their religion. You blame Muslim savagery and insanity on Christianity because you are a liar, because you are ignorant, and because you serve evil.

Says the person who supported a war that's killed 100,000 Iraqis or more........Dont tell me, "that's different", right?

 

[Aldebaran]

Predictably enough it is not in the least impossible for the Mossad to actually be behind this (and much more.) (The CIA is a toothless baby compared with the intelligence, understanding, and operational knowledge and skills of the Mossad.)
I don't know why nobody in the West seems to follow this completely rational line of reasoning. Would it be because that would be labelled "anti-semitism" before it is even said or written?
The "anti-semitism" rethoric is one of the richest possible cows milked out endlessly by the Zionists (notice that I write Zionists) and the feeling of guilt of Western nations gets exploited at the same rate. The victims of the Holocaust would turn in their graves would they know for which goals their suffering gets exploited.

salaam.

 

[rogue yam]

I suppose that's in retaliation for America/Israel threatening to attack his civil power plants?

Absolutely! There is no ignorance or hatred anywhere in the world that is not caused directly by the evil Americans, or else the most-reviled Joooooze.