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Iraq - 'If' you supported the invasion of Iraq do you still stand by your views?

Roadkill said:
Certainly, there are some very conservative historians: there are also a lot of very non-conservative ones.

A historian should be neither.
He should be what he claims to be: a historian.
That means you must stay impartial which implies you have to stay objective which implies you stay honest, all of which implies you try to look at as much sources from as much different angles and perspectives you can possibly find about no matter which subject or issue you study.

It hence also implies you don't show the arrogance to claim "the absolute truth". You can defend your conclusions all you want and by all means yet you need to be open to suggestions and/or critiques and be able to eventually correct or complete your views.

I would think that developping these skills is a first requirement everywhere. People who don't follow these primary rules are no historians worth the academic title they claim.

salaam.
 
Aldebaran said:
A historian should be neither.
He should be what he claims to be: a historian.
That means you must stay impartial which implies you have to stay objective which implies you stay honest, all of which implies you try to look at as much sources from as much different angles and perspectives you can possibly find about no matter which subject or issue you study.

It hence also implies you don't show the arrogance to claim "the absolute truth". You can defend your conclusions all you want and by all means yet you need to be open to suggestions and/or critiques and be able to eventually correct or complete your views.

I would think that developping these skills is a first requirement everywhere. People who don't follow these primary rules are no historians worth the academic title they claim.

salaam.

Total impartiality is impossible. In all walks of life and all professions, an observer brings his or her own preconceptions to the subject being studied. You are, of course, right to suggest that the historian must look at as many sources as possible, but the fact remains that, no matter how much one may try and avoid it, one's own beliefs influence the interpretation of those sources.

The historian, after all, does not merely regurgitate primary documents: he or she interprets them and constructs a hypothesis on the basis of what he or she finds within them.

I don't think anyone these days would claim to produce the absolute truth anyway - merely an interpretation more accurate and more plausible than any other, which is a lot more limited an aim.
 
Roadkill said:
I have seen it. You make the assertion, but provide no evidence to back it up. And I think you're wrong. Certainly, there are some very conservative historians: there are also a lot of very non-conservative ones. There are the Simon Schamas of this world, but there are also the E.P. Thompsons and Christopher Hills. I don't believe historians as a profession are on average any more conservative than any other.

I'm not so sure about Simon Schama to be honest. I find him a little conservative (with a small 'c').
 
Roadkill said:
I have seen it. You make the assertion, but provide no evidence to back it up. And I think you're wrong. Certainly, there are some very conservative historians: there are also a lot of very non-conservative ones. There are the Simon Schamas of this world, but there are also the E.P. Thompsons and Christopher Hills. I don't believe historians as a profession are on average any more conservative than any other.

Problem is that in the UK Schama (whose more of a trans-atlantic 3rd wayer imho) Ferguson, Starkey and the like have the public ear in the UK at the moment, so "popular history" as fed to the public here does lean toward a blue tint.
The fact is that historians with a red tint are either dead (as is the case for both the examples you give), old and venerable and pretty much just rehashing their earlier material (Hobsbawm) or too "young" in their academic careers to have published enough to be taken seriously by TV and other "mass consumption" outlets. Most "non (small or large C) conservative" historians in the UK don't get the coverage that the blue rinsers do.
 
nino_savatte said:
I'm not so sure about Simon Schama to be honest. I find him a little conservative (with a small 'c').

I only used him as an example - the other one who sprung to mind was Hugh Trevor Roper.
 
ViolentPanda said:
Problem is that in the UK Schama (whose more of a trans-atlantic 3rd wayer imho) Ferguson, Starkey and the like have the public ear in the UK at the moment, so "popular history" as fed to the public here does lean toward a blue tint.
The fact is that historians with a red tint are either dead (as is the case for both the examples you give), old and venerable and pretty much just rehashing their earlier material (Hobsbawm) or too "young" in their academic careers to have published enough to be taken seriously by TV and other "mass consumption" outlets. Most "non (small or large C) conservative" historians in the UK don't get the coverage that the blue rinsers do.

Again, I only used Hill and Thompson as examples, mainly because they're well known. I could have mentioned someone like marcus Rediker, who is very far from dead - although I have to say I don't rate his work - John Saville, John Rule etc etc.

It is true that 'popular history,' and TV history especially, is rather conventional/conservative, but then is that any surprise? It's aimed at a mass market. But acknowledging that is rather less sweeping a statement than saying that all (or most) historians are conservatives.
 
Roadkill said:
I only used him as an example - the other one who sprung to mind was Hugh Trevor Roper.

For sure and I'm well aware of Hobsbawn et al too. And as VP says, the most [tele]visible ones are fairly conservative. At least we don't have to see Scruton's ugly mug on telly these days...I hope I haven't spoken too soon!:D
 
Roadkill said:
Total impartiality is impossible. In all walks of life and all professions, an observer brings his or her own preconceptions to the subject being studied.

Avoiding such an influence is very well possible if you are alert and always aware of the problem. The keywords are self-knowledge, honesty, and above all respect for and familiarity with your sources and their background (the last two a primary requirement to be able to place them in context).

You are, of course, right to suggest that the historian must look at as many sources as possible, but the fact remains that, no matter how much one may try and avoid it, one's own beliefs influence the interpretation of those sources.

I don't permit personal beliefs or formed ideas to influence my findings on a subject. Otherwise there would be many cases where I would not even be able to research let alone to defend my findings.
If for example tomorrow I find by some miracle evidence poiting out that what Wansbrough thinks about the history of Al Qur'an and the Hadith reflects the truth, I shall not hesitate to examine further following his views and research (which now gives no evidence for anything and hence is interesting but nevertheless indisputably doubtful).

The historian, after all, does not merely regurgitate primary documents: he or she interprets them and constructs a hypothesis on the basis of what he or she finds within them.

This is a bit wrong in the sense that you don't "interprete" in the sense of "deforming what you find by *adding* your own ideas". You merely *give* ideas about what you find, which does not change the contenance of the original sources you try to explain and/or place in context. Of course every case is different and in any case your findings largely depend on the available or accessible material.

merely an interpretation more accurate and more plausible than any other, which is a lot more limited an aim.

It should be the only aim (and sometimes it should not be the aim at all). Yet from what I understand the person discussed is said to follow other goals.

salaam.
 
Aldebaran said:
Avoiding such an influence is very well possible if you are alert and always aware of the problem. The keywords are self-knowledge, honesty, and above all respect for and familiarity with your sources and their background (the last two a primary requirement to be able to place them in context).

I simply don't believe that to be the case. You can be as knowledgeable and familiar with all of the surviving documents on a given subject, but to an extent how you approach them will always be conditioned by your preconceived ideas and views. And remember, as a general rule, the closer the time period being studied to the present, the more documents survive. For someone studying nineteenth century British history, for example, there are more surviving records than anyone could look at in a lifetime, so inevitably there must be a process of selecting what to look at, which is another opportunity at which personal prejudices creep in.

None of that, I agree, is a licence to treat sources in a cavalier fashion, but just as you must treat sources with respect and awareness of their context, so you must also be aware of their interpreter's context!

I don't permit personal beliefs or formed ideas to influence my findings on a subject. Otherwise there would be many cases where I would not even be able to research let alone to defend my findings.
If for example tomorrow I find by some miracle evidence poiting out that what Wansbrough thinks about the history of Al Qur'an and the Hadith reflects the truth, I shall not hesitate to examine further following his views and research (which now gives no evidence for anything and hence is interesting but nevertheless indisputably doubtful).

But accepting there is an element of partiality in every historian's work doesn't make it impossible for one to defend his or her findings. Indeed, one might argue that consciously interpreting a subject in a different way opens up interesting new lines of enquiry, and may give a more accurate picture than a 'traditional' way of looking at it.


This is a bit wrong in the sense that you don't "interprete" in the sense of "deforming what you find by *adding* your own ideas". You merely *give* ideas about what you find, which does not change the contenance of the original sources you try to explain and/or place in context. Of course every case is different and in any case your findings largely depend on the available or accessible material.

That is what I meant by 'interpretation:' interpretation and distortion are not the same thing, although they are not mutully exclusive either. I would suggest, however, that most historians do add to what is in a particular document, because they bring to it their understanding of its context (which will be different from its contemporary's understanding), and knowledge of other documents on the same subject. So in presenting findings based on reseach of a particular source, inevitably you often end up going slightly beyond what it actually says, and resolving ambiguities within it with reference to your understanding of the wider context.

It is also a fact that documents are not always clear in their meaning. Language often contains many layers of meaning, and people may (deliberately or otherwise) say one thing whilst meaning something slightly different, or deliberately make their meaning vague so as to appeal to different audiences. For an example, look no further than a politician trying to steer a middle course between two poles of a debate! In these cases, its obviously not just a matter of 'letting sources speak for themselves,' because their voice is unclear: again, the historian's interpretation is necessary to make some sense of them. And I maintain that that process is to some extent subjective.

It should be the only aim (and sometimes it should not be the aim at all). Yet from what I understand the person discussed is said to follow other goals.

salaam.

What, Ferguson? I know little about him and wouldn't want to offer an opinion.
 
I supported the war. :o

I wasn't political at all, at the time. I had no interest. I used to read the Sun because my Dad used to read it, so I was used to it, and just carried on buying it for an 'easy read' at work. My television news came from Sky. My parents are racists. These aren't excuses, but I don't think they helped me form the right view!

I accept all of the charges laid at the other pro-war people: I was ignorant, lacked critical thought, and trusted the government.

Do I stand by my views? No! My views on just about everything have changed so much over the last few years that it's quite unbelievable. I got into some discussions over a number of weeks in a Techno chat room on Soulseek, of all places. My arguments were ripped to shreds by people who actually knew what they were talking about, and slowly I realised how wrong I was about almost everything.

I followed a link from another forum (posted by Orang Utan) to this place and just lurked, watching the arguing and debates. I followed all the links and read as much as I could on every topic discussed. Obviously, this just confirmed how wrong I'd been about the war, and I've been vocally anti-war to everyone whose view I might influence ever since.

I don't feel guilty about supporting the war too much, as obviously I had no effect in the grand scheme of things. I do wish I hadn't been so naive, though. But if anything, it's made me more interested in what is being done in my name, and I do try to do what little I can to make things better.
 
Fez909 said:
I supported the war. :o

I wasn't political at all, at the time. I had no interest. I used to read the Sun because my Dad used to read it, so I was used to it, and just carried on buying it for an 'easy read' at work. My television news came from Sky. My parents are racists. These aren't excuses, but I don't think they helped me form the right view!

I accept all of the charges laid at the other pro-war people: I was ignorant, lacked critical thought, and trusted the government.

Do I stand by my views? No! My views on just about everything have changed so much over the last few years that it's quite unbelievable. I got into some discussions over a number of weeks in a Techno chat room on Soulseek, of all places. My arguments were ripped to shreds by people who actually knew what they were talking about, and slowly I realised how wrong I was about almost everything.

I followed a link from another forum (posted by Orang Utan) to this place and just lurked, watching the arguing and debates. I followed all the links and read as much as I could on every topic discussed. Obviously, this just confirmed how wrong I'd been about the war, and I've been vocally anti-war to everyone whose view I might influence ever since.

I don't feel guilty about supporting the war too much, as obviously I had no effect in the grand scheme of things. I do wish I hadn't been so naive, though. But if anything, it's made me more interested in what is being done in my name, and I do try to do what little I can to make things better.


Thats a very honest post mate. Very refreshing to read.

Out of nosey interest whay paper(s) do you read these days?
 
Independent, when I get time. I can't seem to get through it lately - not enough time, so it takes me a week to read all the articles.

I tend not to buy a newspaper very often now, because of the reason above, instead reading the BBC online, and ditto Independent and Guardian. Also Urban is a good way of 'filtering' the news: If something's worth finding out about, there's probably a post on it here (with links, natch :) )
 
Fez909 said:
I supported the war. :o

I wasn't political at all, at the time. I had no interest. I used to read the Sun because my Dad used to read it, so I was used to it, and just carried on buying it for an 'easy read' at work. My television news came from Sky. My parents are racists. These aren't excuses, but I don't think they helped me form the right view!

I accept all of the charges laid at the other pro-war people: I was ignorant, lacked critical thought, and trusted the government.

Do I stand by my views? No! My views on just about everything have changed so much over the last few years that it's quite unbelievable. I got into some discussions over a number of weeks in a Techno chat room on Soulseek, of all places. My arguments were ripped to shreds by people who actually knew what they were talking about, and slowly I realised how wrong I was about almost everything.

I followed a link from another forum (posted by Orang Utan) to this place and just lurked, watching the arguing and debates. I followed all the links and read as much as I could on every topic discussed. Obviously, this just confirmed how wrong I'd been about the war, and I've been vocally anti-war to everyone whose view I might influence ever since.

I don't feel guilty about supporting the war too much, as obviously I had no effect in the grand scheme of things. I do wish I hadn't been so naive, though. But if anything, it's made me more interested in what is being done in my name, and I do try to do what little I can to make things better.

Good for you, at least you've been a big enough person to admit you thought you were wrong and do something about it. :)
 
Yes and yes because things need to get much much worse before they can get any better.

For the first time in mainstream press an on TV things like the US's primary FP drive for resource control (which was in place WAY before PNAC wrote their little trolly thoughts) is being talked about by people outside of academia, the left and Chomsky love-ins.

The weakening of the US and removal of ANY kind of moral weight it had has at least in part enabled leaders like Chavez to be heard on the world stage as more than just some crazy Latino leftie.

There's no more Saddam, and like the Balkans, the festering hatreds of the region (there long before the British Empire got there) are finally being given an airing. It won't be pretty, but after centuries of being someone's imperial treasure, Iraq now stands a small chance of being able to govern itself how it sees fit.

Whether or not humans as a species get through the next 100 years is debateable - if the planet doesn't do the job for us there will be some kind of major, planet spanning conflict again. It's only when/if we get through that will any kind of change ever happen.
 
Roadkill said:
You can be as knowledgeable and familiar with all of the surviving documents on a given subject, but to an extent how you approach them will always be conditioned by your preconceived ideas and views.

That it can happen and happens does not make it a condition.

And remember, as a general rule, the closer the time period being studied to the present, the more documents survive.

Only counts in environments where such documentation is possible and accessible at that. Contemporan history is not my field anyway. :) But you are correct that when studying contemporan history you more easily get lured into a subjective approach, even on subconsious level.
Yet if you are not enough aware of your own background and of how that could influence or cloud your views, you better stay out of the field of history studies.

Indeed, one might argue that consciously interpreting a subject in a different way opens up interesting new lines of enquiry, and may give a more accurate picture than a 'traditional' way of looking at it.

Suggesting a new line does not equal inserting subjective reading and interpretation. It means you saw or chose other possibilities to approach a subject then what is done before or what is generally seen as "acceptable and accepted".
It isn't exactly the most easy way, in none of its aspects, while in contrast a partial, subjective approach is the most easy thing to do.

I would suggest, however, that most historians do add to what is in a particular document, because they bring to it their understanding of its context (which will be different from its contemporary's understanding), and knowledge of other documents on the same subject.

Placing sources in their historical context does not change the source itself, nor its contenance, nor what it meant to the writer or the people of that time. The goal should be to add to the understanding thereof in this time period. That the weight and impact of that meaning differs is inavoidable and only normal. We are not what or how those people where, let alone eye-witnesses of the subject under study.

So in presenting findings based on reseach of a particular source, inevitably you often end up going slightly beyond what it actually says, and resolving ambiguities within it with reference to your understanding of the wider context.

Resolving ambiguities and reparing faults or filling blanks (in primary documents, copies, parallel copies and/or their descendants for example) does not change the text. The goals is to get as close as possible to the original.
When you do primary and comparative parallel source research this involves historical linguistics, text history, text restauration and its critique.

It is also a fact that documents are not always clear in their meaning. Language often contains many layers of meaning

Language is a very difficult and complex tool. If you aren't skilled enough in it you should stay away from trying to interprete historical sources written in it. If a source is unclear the historian using it should take notice and mention it.

salaam.
 
Fez909 said:
I supported the war. :o

I wasn't political at all, at the time. I had no interest. I used to read the Sun because my Dad used to read it, so I was used to it, and just carried on buying it for an 'easy read' at work. My television news came from Sky. My parents are racists. These aren't excuses, but I don't think they helped me form the right view!

I accept all of the charges laid at the other pro-war people: I was ignorant, lacked critical thought, and trusted the government.

Do I stand by my views? No! My views on just about everything have changed so much over the last few years that it's quite unbelievable. I got into some discussions over a number of weeks in a Techno chat room on Soulseek, of all places. My arguments were ripped to shreds by people who actually knew what they were talking about, and slowly I realised how wrong I was about almost everything.

I followed a link from another forum (posted by Orang Utan) to this place and just lurked, watching the arguing and debates. I followed all the links and read as much as I could on every topic discussed. Obviously, this just confirmed how wrong I'd been about the war, and I've been vocally anti-war to everyone whose view I might influence ever since.

I don't feel guilty about supporting the war too much, as obviously I had no effect in the grand scheme of things. I do wish I hadn't been so naive, though. But if anything, it's made me more interested in what is being done in my name, and I do try to do what little I can to make things better.
nice one dude, Iraq opened my eyes a lot too :)
 
Aldebaran said:
That it can happen and happens does not make it a condition.

I'm afraid it does. No matter how self-aware you might be, or think you might be, you cannot dial out your own views completely.

Only counts in environments where such documentation is possible and accessible at that. Contemporan history is not my field anyway. :) But you are correct that when studying contemporan history you more easily get lured into a subjective approach, even on subconsious level.

It's a good generalisation. The volume of, for example, Parliamentary documents from the nineteenth century is many times greater than for the eighteenth. The same applies in pretty much every area in whcih documents have been generated and preserved. really, only when studying non-literary societies does the problem not arise.

However, it's a common observation amongst modern historians that premodernists, since they work with a far less comprehensive array of written sources, have to do more extrapolation to fill in the gaps! That is a process just as subjective, in fact more so, than selecting which of a vast array of written sources is most useful.

Yet if you are not enough aware of your own background and of how that could influence or cloud your views, you better stay out of the field of history studies.

That is what I have been arguing all along! You must be aware of your own background, and of how that skews your perspective. Where we differ is that you think it is possible to rise above that, whereas I don't. You can compensate for it, if course, and reduce subjectivity to a minimum, but it remains there nonetheless.

Suggesting a new line does not equal inserting subjective reading and interpretation. It means you saw or chose other possibilities to approach a subject then what is done before or what is generally seen as "acceptable and accepted".

Of course. I never suggested otherwise. But again, you see and choose those possibilities, though obviously within the limits of that the sources show. You don't really think that your own mentality has no influence on what possibilities you see and favour, do you?

It isn't exactly the most easy way, in none of its aspects, while in contrast a partial, subjective approach is the most easy thing to do.

I would suggest that the easiest thing to do is simply to regurgitate primary sourgces, which is also the least subjective approach. But it's also only half the job. If my life sonsisted solely of writing summaries of what was contained in various archives it would be very easy, and rather boring.

Placing sources in their historical context does not change the source itself, nor its contenance, nor what it meant to the writer or the people of that time. The goal should be to add to the understanding thereof in this time period. That the weight and impact of that meaning differs is inavoidable and only normal. We are not what or how those people where, let alone eye-witnesses of the subject under study.

Again, I don't take great issue with most of what you say, except that you seem to have missed my point about context. It is precisely the historian's contrextual knowledge that enables a source to 'add to the understanding ... [of the] period.' A document on its own often says little - it is a fallacy that 'the sources speak for themselves - but placing it in its context, and highlighting the intention of the author 'adds value' to it. But again, because understanding of context and interpretation of the author's intentions both involve some guesswork, the sort of objectivity you seem to be claiming you can pursue becomes impossible.

Resolving ambiguities and reparing faults or filling blanks (in primary documents, copies, parallel copies and/or their descendants for example) does not change the text. The goals is to get as close as possible to the original.

Of course, but with respect, resolving ambiguities can 'change the text.' It goes back to what I said above about authorial intent, and the example I used in a previous post about politicians' speeches. Language isn't that precise a tool: different readers will read slightly different meanings into the same text, and writers will sometimes (as in the case of politicians) exploit the fact that, up to a point, we hear what we want to hear. Now, acknowledging all of this doesn't mean that I go along with the hyper-relativist (postmodernist) view that only the reader invests texts with meaning, and that therefore there is no such thing as any one correct interpretation. That's just nonsense: you can't read The Bible as a phone directory no matter how hard you try. However, it does mean that - as you come close to suggesting - the reader must always be aware that he will often invest certain parts of a text with a slightly, but sometimes significantly, different meaning. Two different people may well, then, resolve an ambiguity in a document in two different ways.

When you do primary and comparative parallel source research this involves historical linguistics, text history, text restauration and its critique.

Of course. But remember, written prose texts are not the only sources out there. Different techniques are needed when dealing with sources as diverse as published statistics, folk songs, trade directories and the minutes of evidence of government enquiries, to pull a few examples out of thin air. Some of those techniques claim to be new schools of historical thought in themselves...

Language is a very difficult and complex tool. If you aren't skilled enough in it you should stay away from trying to interprete historical sources written in it. If a source is unclear the historian using it should take notice and mention it.

I think I've acknowledged how complex a tool language is! But that is what makes it interesting, isn't it? You are of course right to suggest that an essential skill for a historian is the ability to interpret and understand language, but I would suggest that there are a great many other skills besides. And as a final observation, it is not only language that can be ambiguous and unclear: no source tells more seductive lies than a neat set of printed figures...
 
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