Iraq - 'If' you supported the invasion of Iraq do you still stand by your views?

[Kid_Eternity]

Actually I was speaking of Tories I've met who for the most part were younger and not military. But yeah your point still stands...

 

[Roadkill]

This perhaps isn't the place to say it, but I was dead against it from the off, and I can't help but look with some wonderment at how most of the arguments that were deployed against the war have been proved right - and how every single one deployed in its support was totally, disastrously wrong.

From the start it looked like a cynical, self-interested exercise in neo-imperialism, spun to the public on the basis of a pack of lies and half-truths, and catastrophically ill-thought-out. It was hard to believe how little was said about what should be done after Saddam Hussain's regime was toppled. From the off it suggested a lack of foresight, and in the event it's been as bad, or worse, than most of us expected it to be.

ONe of the saddest things about the whole sorry business, IMO, is how governments on both sides of the pond rode roughshod over the large proportion of people (a majority, on this side) who thought the whole thing was a bad idea, and since then have done as much as they can to stifle public expressions of opposition to it. Aside from anything else, the Iraq war speeded up the erosion of freedom of speech here.

 

[Lock&Light]

I was for it from the start but not for the usual reasonings. I saw it as grab for petroleum pure and simple. They got it and sadly have had problems consolidating ths holding. Petroleum makes the world go round and a meglomaniac holding the keys to the kingdom is not going to cut it at any rate.

I've never had a lot of sympathy for you, (as opposed to Astronaut for whom I have a lot of respect) but any that I might have had has been dissipated to the point of elimination by that posting of yours.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

I've never had a lot of sympathy for you, (as opposed to Astronaut for whom I have a lot of respect) but any that I might have had has been dissipated to the point of elimination by that posting of yours.

Can't see anything in his post you'd disagree with. I thought you were pro war?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I supported the war, but I don't support how the Bush admin has fucked up the prosecution of the war.

 

[Lock&Light]

Can't see anything in his post you'd disagree with. I thought you were pro war?

I always regretted your inability to see anything other than in black and white. Try to find some colour, friend.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

I always regretted your inability to see anything other than in black and white. Try to find some colour, friend.

Were you for the invasion or not?

 

[Lock&Light]

Were you for the invasion or not?

I never thought of you as being incapable of reading, even if your memory has let you down.

 

[Kaka Tim]

This perhaps isn't the place to say it, but I was dead against it from the off, and I can't help but look with some wonderment at how most of the arguments that were deployed against the war have been proved right - and how every single one deployed in its support was totally, disastrously wrong.

From the start it looked like a cynical, self-interested exercise in neo-imperialism, spun to the public on the basis of a pack of lies and half-truths, and catastrophically ill-thought-out. It was hard to believe how little was said about what should be done after Saddam Hussain's regime was toppled. From the off it suggested a lack of foresight, and in the event it's been as bad, or worse, than most of us expected it to be.

ONe of the saddest things about the whole sorry business, IMO, is how governments on both sides of the pond rode roughshod over the large proportion of people (a majority, on this side) who thought the whole thing was a bad idea, and since then have done as much as they can to stifle public expressions of opposition to it. Aside from anything else, the Iraq war speeded up the erosion of freedom of speech here.

Indeed - pretty much my thoughts exactly.

The fact that BLair was able to ride roughshod over the popular will, lied and decieved and then delivered an absolute disaster yet still remains in power (rather than in a prison cell or swinging from a lamp-post) cruelly exposes the threadbare and corrupt sham of our 'democracy'.

 

[mod]

This perhaps isn't the place to say it, but I was dead against it from the off, and I can't help but look with some wonderment at how most of the arguments that were deployed against the war have been proved right - and how every single one deployed in its support was totally, disastrously wrong.

From the start it looked like a cynical, self-interested exercise in neo-imperialism, spun to the public on the basis of a pack of lies and half-truths, and catastrophically ill-thought-out. It was hard to believe how little was said about what should be done after Saddam Hussain's regime was toppled. From the off it suggested a lack of foresight, and in the event it's been as bad, or worse, than most of us expected it to be.

ONe of the saddest things about the whole sorry business, IMO, is how governments on both sides of the pond rode roughshod over the large proportion of people (a majority, on this side) who thought the whole thing was a bad idea, and since then have done as much as they can to stifle public expressions of opposition to it. Aside from anything else, the Iraq war speeded up the erosion of freedom of speech here.

Well said sir

 

[Kid_Eternity]

I never thought of you as being incapable of reading, even if your memory has let you down.

Christ you're such a politician! Were you for it or not?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Christ you're such a politician!

That has to qualify as one of the most vile insults I've ever seen on Urban!

Well done that man!!

 

[X-77]

I had never really been that political or anything up until Iraq and even I could tell that Blair was lying through his teeth

Historian Niall Ferguson was on the Question Time panel last night and he tried to take the piss out the Lib Dem guy (nick clegg) who had said that a million of us who took to the streets were not duped and that we knew it to be lies - Ferguson barked back 'how did you know, intuition?' Idiot - as if there was not a mountain of evidence to show us all that everything was a lie! How thick can you get....and he's a historian too! Nevermind, these gullible fools have to try and make themselves feel better somehow I guess, after all, they must feel very, very silly now

 

[nino_savatte]

I had never really been that political or anything up until Iraq and even I could tell that Blair was lying through his teeth

Historian Niall Ferguson was on the Question Time panel last night and he tried to take the piss out the Lib Dem guy (nick clegg) who had said that a million of us who took to the streets were not duped and that we knew it to be lies - Ferguson barked back 'how did you know, intuition?' Idiot - as if there was not a mountain of evidence to show us all that everything was a lie! How thick can you get....and he's a historian too! Nevermind, these gullible fools have to try and make themselves feel better somehow I guess, after all, they must feel very, very silly now

That's the trouble with many historians, and Ferguson in particular: they are conservatives by and large. They also seem to be a little too dismissive of anything that doesn't fit into the particular epistemological box of their choice.

 

[Lock&Light]

Christ you're such a politician! Were you for it or not?

Have you not read this thread? If not, do so.

 

[Barking_Mad]

I had to assume that the Coalition had a plan for the peace and was shocked to discover that they had not. With hindsight it's always easy to know what to do.

You "had to assume" did you? Really? Or are those just the words of someone who didn't bother asking any questions at the time and is now trying to justify his own ignorance and lack of critical thought?

Even if you "assumed" they did have a plan it would appear you didn't bother asking any questions in trying to find out if it was a good one or not.

One assumption they had a plan and perhaps another assumption that it was a good one?

 

[teqniq]

I was against it from the start, pretty much for the reasons expressed by others on this thread.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Have you not read this thread? If not, do so.

Ah yes and I saw the rather thoughtful replies to your flimsy "support" for the war...

 

[Kid_Eternity]

That has to qualify as one of the most vile insults I've ever seen on Urban!

Well done that man!!

 

[Lock&Light]

Ah yes ...

And you still found it necessary to harangue me about what my stance was. You'd be a troll if your intelligence was up to it.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

And you still found it necessary to harangue me about what my stance was. You'd be a troll if your intelligence was up to it.

And you'd be human if you're heart was up to it...

 

[Lock&Light]

And you'd be human if you're heart was up to it...

Go away and play with the children, kid.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Stand by your views, they are something to cling to
And something safe to come to when the war is going sideways
Stand by your views and show the world you love George
Keep givin' all the love you can
Stand by your views

 

[Jonti]

Yeah, you gotta laugh. Or cry.

 

[Roadkill]

That's the trouble with many historians, and Ferguson in particular: they are conservatives by and large. They also seem to be a little too dismissive of anything that doesn't fit into the particular epistemological box of their choice.

Judging all historians on the views of Niall Ferguson is like judging all Americans on the views of pbman.

 

[Aldebaran]

That's the trouble with many historians, and Ferguson in particular:

Never heard of him. Historian in which field?

they are conservatives by and large. They also seem to be a little too dismissive of anything that doesn't fit into the particular epistemological box of their choice.

Please don't generalize like this. I don't find myself back in that picture and I know many others who would say the same. Maybe the meaning of the word "historian" is a bit eroded in your language (or your country)?

salaam.

 

[Aldebaran]

I was for it from the start but not for the usual reasonings. I saw it as grab for petroleum pure and simple.

Let me enlighten you: That are the "usual reasonings" of those who started and defend this crime.

They got it and sadly have had problems consolidating ths holding.

So you feel sorry that tens of thousands of people were murdered and that hundreds still die monthly because of this crime? Or do you feel sorry that there are still some Iraqis alive in Iraq?

Petroleum makes the world go round and a meglomaniac holding the keys to the kingdom is not going to cut it at any rate.

Maybe someone should educate you about what makes the world survive megalomaniac lunactics.

By the way: If you are a Jew, which I think you said to be, you are in my view a disgrace for Judaism. Maybe reflecting on that can bring you back to normality.

shalom.

 

[nino_savatte]

Never heard of him. Historian in which field?



Please don't generalize like this. I don't find myself back in that picture and I know many others who would say the same. Maybe the meaning of the word "historian" is a bit eroded in your language (or your country)?

salaam.

I'm not generalising, it's true; particulary in this country. If you can find more than a handful of left/liberal historians in this country, I should like you to produce a list for me. But as far as I know the Directory of Left Historians is a very small book indeed.

Niall Ferguson, despite his conservative inclinations, wrote and presented an interesting book and documentary about the British Empire called Empire. He currently lectures at Columbia University iirc.

 

[nino_savatte]

Judging all historians on the views of Niall Ferguson is like judging all Americans on the views of pbman.

Er no, please see my reply to Aldebaran.

 

[Roadkill]

Er no, please see my reply to Aldebaran.

I have seen it. You make the assertion, but provide no evidence to back it up. And I think you're wrong. Certainly, there are some very conservative historians: there are also a lot of very non-conservative ones. There are the Simon Schamas of this world, but there are also the E.P. Thompsons and Christopher Hills. I don't believe historians as a profession are on average any more conservative than any other.