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Iran to Release British Sailors

Bernie Gunther said:
Yes, but apparently insufficient evidence of machismo was demonstrated to suit US tastes.

Interesting, makes me think that a US ship in a similar situation would have been expected to open fire on the Iranian boats thus causing injuiry and death and a full blown international incident.

Mind you it seems the US is just gearing itself up to have a war with Iran anyhow so perhaps that is just to state the obvious.

I don't think voters in Great Britain are at all into the idea of war with Iran, I wonder what US voters think.
 
weltweit said:
Interesting, makes me think that a US ship in a similar situation would have been expected to open fire on the Iranian boats thus causing injuiry and death and a full blown international incident.

Mind you it seems the US is just gearing itself up to have a war with Iran anyhow so perhaps that is just to state the obvious.

I don't think voters in Great Britain are at all into the idea of war with Iran, I wonder what US voters think.
I think many in Iran know that the British people were none too keen on Iraq (some interesting statements in the last few days on Blair vs the people) and that there's no way they'd support a war against themselves, but this is obviously a way to make that very, very clear to others i.e. the US. To the extent that it lowers the chances that our executive would sanction such moves (already unlikely I think) it's good. But then the hawks are losing the fight in the US right now too.
 
Bernie Gunther said:
One comment that particularly sticks with me is someone saying, to general approval that the Brits have proven themselves to be too spineless to be reliable allies in the region and that the US should look elsewhere, I think to Israel in his view, for some allies who see things the same way as they do and know how to act tough.
So something positive may come out of all this after all ? ;) :D
 
copliker said:
Apart from the 'confessions', way OTT.
Very true, although it did lead to even the Daily Mail criticising the soldiers for not displaying more of a stiff upper lip, this further decreasing confidence in the armed forces.
 
Bernie Gunther said:
That's an interesting way of looking at it and I don't think you're far wrong, although I'm not sure how intentional that aspect was.

Check this out from the normally level-headed ex-spook US blogger Pat Lang. source

I'm not entirely convinced that was their game either but that does appear to be one serious aspect of the outcome of this. At least going by some of the things I've read from the US over this, if we're not careful we're going to be looking like France (think Iraq war build up) in the eyes of [gung ho] America pretty soon...
 
Kid_Eternity said:
At least going by some of the things I've read from the US over this, if we're not careful we're going to be looking like France (think Iraq war build up) in the eyes of [gung ho] America pretty soon...

Which as a number of people have pointed out may not be a bad thing at all.

France do not afaikt fear the global influence of that far distant bearded caveman we have made into our ogre.

We however seem positively quivering
 
weltweit said:
Which as a number of people have pointed out may not be a bad thing at all.

France do not afaikt fear the global influence of that far distant bearded caveman we have made into our ogre.

We however seem positively quivering

Depending on what you mean by no bad thing. It's possible this could accelerate certain US desires for military action with a self righteous 'never send a boy to do a man's job' mindset fuelling it.
 
I think the US isolated is less likely to lash out but the truth is that they are the superpower and can do what they want. We are no longer the world policeman, a role that we had foisted on ourselves years ago for some reason but that time is well past though we do not like to admit it to ourselves.

Every action causes a reaction, and if you look at our actions over the last few years it is clear why said Afghan/Saudi caveman ogre is targetting us with his wrath and surprising influence. Ironic also that a single man living like a primitive and seeming to posses just one AK47 can exert such influence across the globe and can threaten so many.

Consider for a moment the actions of the Swiss in the last 20 years and what threats face them? avalanche perhaps but not a worry of tube bus and train bombs like we have.
 
Kid_Eternity said:
I'm not entirely convinced that was their game either but that does appear to be one serious aspect of the outcome of this. At least going by some of the things I've read from the US over this, if we're not careful we're going to be looking like France (think Iraq war build up) in the eyes of [gung ho] America pretty soon...
Yeah, but if you have no respect for a bunch of gung ho arseholes, and they're being insulting about it to boot, then their attitude is probably not going to go down too well is it?
 
Bernie Gunther said:
Yeah, but if you have no respect for a bunch of gung ho arseholes, and they're being insulting about it to boot, then their attitude is probably not going to go down too well is it?
I hoping that I will get involved in an arguement with some red-neck when I'm across in the States soon. I'd like to point out the likehood would have been that they would have had 15 dead Marines and a war when they are already involved in two wars that they can barely support without conscription.
 
jæd said:
Pity the rest of the world isn't impressed. I would be wondering why Iran has just given away the best set of bargaining chips its had for a long time... :confused:

I don't think that you or I are the part of the world that's meant to be impressed. There'll be a large number of people across the Middle East who are only to happy to have seen Iran, in the words of a former Ambassador on Newsnight last night, 'dot the UK one on the nose.'

This was all about political grandstanding: Iran trying to impress its neighbours, demonstrate its influence in the Gulf region and send signals to the rest of the world that it's not going to be intimidated. By arresting the sailors it got that message across very clearly: by dressing them up in new suits and then releasing them as a 'gift,' it's sent out the signal that unlike the US it doesn't 'render' its prisoners or dress them up in organge jumpsuits and keep them in cages for years on end (which is bollocks, given Iran's human rights record, but since when did truth count for much in political signal-sending?!). Ahmedinajad can claim to have shown mercy. It's all about 'winning hearts and minds,' as the saying goes.

I'd say that, much as this may have been a victory for a diplomatic approach on the British government's part in negotiating the release of the sailors, it's also a major propaganda coup for Iran. Say what you like about Ahmedinejad's government, but they're not stupid and they know how to play the media...
 
Sky now running a piece from one of the guys captured who said 3 days before that they were gathering Intelligence on Iran.

Sky refrained from running the piece for erm, obvious reasons.
 
to be honest the Iranians wouldn't have tried it on with the us navy
they would have had two much more heavily armed boats with helicopter gunship support and a flight of f18s in the air and awac support :rolleyes:
for basically a customs inspection job
what would wrong foot the iraninans would be an offer of joint patrols as there only there to stop smugglers and protect the oil installations
 
Roadkill said:
Say what you like about Ahmedinejad's government, but they're not stupid and they know how to play the media...

AFTAB-E YAZD said:
"We should have avoided taking any action that could damage Iranians' dignity and honour... The release of the British sailors just a day after Tony Blair's empty threat did not arouse any sense of pride among Iranians but possibly even a sort of repulsion."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6528731.stm

They don't sound very impressed...! :D
 
Yes Bernie, there are for sure quite a lot of fruit cakes over the pond.
It seems some of them wanted us to go to war, another one, just over this, something that could easily be resoloved with diplomacy.

I spent some time in the US years ago and was quite taken back how vociferous, hate filled and well violent politics is over there, nothing like the civlised campaigning we have in GB. And since 9/11 the US has been at war pretty much non stop so perhaps there is some justification to their "gung ho" ness. Its just not very British.
 
Iran is one of the most securely democratic Countries in the world, and certainly the Middle East. Not my words, but those of ex Tory leader Michael Howard. He said this to say that it is not just dictatorships that we should wage war with.

On the latter point George Bush seems to be uncomfortable. In his opinion it is the leaders of Countries who oppose democracy that should be punished. ie Uzbekistan, Egypt, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, etc.

Iran is very quickly becoming more progressive. The Persians seem to make better films than the Yanks nowadays, and certainelly have a better, fairer health sevice and education system. The stoning to death of homosexual men is still rife, but not as much as it was in the 80s. Waging war with this country would put this back centurys. It will also create a worse situation for womens rights groups, as it has done in Iraq. And it seems that Iran gives it's illegal terrorists illfitting suits and chocolates, whilst the yanks give non convicted Islamists orange boiler suits shackles, piss on them, and kick many of them half to death.

Who wins?
 
I suspect that there are a number of things upsetting them here.

Lack of Hollywood-style machismo/lethal stupidity by RN boarding party.

The incident not turning into a casus belli for a war they'd very much like.

Diplomacy demonstrably working.

Iran 'getting away with something'

Iran failing to torture them vs characteristic US treatment of prisoners.

... or some combination of the above.
 
did they withhold all of that interview or just part of it i thought i saw that vid already and some journos were talking about them follwoing small boats, I wonder what amerians reaction will be to the the british lieing about what they were doing there, will that reduced the disappointment.
 
gathering intelligence rather than being all cloak and dagger stuff
will be 0900 saw IRC patrol heading due west etc etc
surveillance wise you'd see more from the frigate cause its higher and you can mount stabilized binos on it
plus they got a helicopter with all sorts of sensors on board
a rib is useless for surveillance as you can't see very far in one.
any military unit observes whats going on in its area of operation its not very exciting
 
I notice neo-con shill Amir Tahiri has a shit-stirring article in the Times today.

While everyone should be happy that the 15 British servicemen are home from Tehran, it is, perhaps, too early to uncork the bubbly. For the undeclared war that the Islamic Republic has waged against Western democracies since 1979 is far from over.
source

Meanwhile in the US, mainstream media like MSNBC has been showing US military pundits expressing their contempt for the Royal Marines and British sailors.

See e.g. this
 
Bernie Gunther said:
Meanwhile in the US, mainstream media like MSNBC has been showing US military pundits expressing their contempt for the Royal Marines and British sailors.

See e.g. this

thats ok, every British soldier i've ever met has expressed nothing but contempt for the half-trained, badly led, panic-stricken illiterates with all the restraint of a Paedophile at a beautiful baby competition and the vehicle recognition skills of a blind Chechen with an AK-47 and spastic finger syndrome who tend to make up the US armed forces.

to be slagged off by that bunch of morons is an honour in itself.
 
Bernie Gunther said:
Meanwhile in the US, mainstream media like MSNBC has been showing US military pundits expressing their contempt for the Royal Marines and British sailors.

That guy is there to make people watch MSNBC, rather than actually give intelligent comment. Though it would interesting to see him in the same situation as the hostages... If he was surrounded and outnumbered by Iranians would he try and fight his way out of it...?

(Lets imagine he did... He (and his co-hostages would eventually get back to the US in body-bags, the Allied/Iranian talks would break down, Irans nuclear campaign would continue un-abated and eventually they would have nukes. Goodbye Jerusalam. Goodbye Tehran. Problem solved...?)
 
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