Iran President in new shit storm

[winterinmoscow]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4527142.stm

I am wondering what exactly this guy hopes to acheive from all this and whether he is absolutely convinced of what he says. Scary stuff

 

[ViolentPanda]

Weird.

Personally I think Ahmadinejad is bonkers, and "holocaust denial" is disgusting.

Thing is, IMO the part of his comment where he says "...They have created a myth today that they call the massacre of Jews and they consider it a principle above God, religions and the prophets..." has been specifically (again, in my opinion) designed to appeal to Iran's middle-classes. He's taken an observation which could be applied to a small part of Jewry (where the holocaust has been elevated as the exemplar of "racial" suffering above all others, and its' primacy cannot and must not be challenged) and expanded it to cover ALL Jewry.

I don't think he realises what a dangerous game he's playing, especially in terms of how the US and Europe will now be lobbied by Jewish interest groups seeking to convince the politicians that punitive sanctions are a good idea.

Perhaps he's relying on Iran's burgeoning trade with China to pull him out of any holes sanctions might make.

 

[winterinmoscow]

I think there's a lot in what you say VP. He really is very scary indeed. I am hoping though, that crazy as it seems, he does have some end result in mind from these tactics and has thought about the ramificiations because if this is something he just spits out in a temper, that makes it all the more frightening.

 

[Andy the Don]

The constituency that elected him were the uneducated poor & religious. They are his bedrock support. By repeating the holocaust denials he is pandering to their prejudices. Ahmadinejad has already been censored by Iran's supreme religious council. Maybe by playing to his core he thinks he can bolster his support enough so that the supreme council feel that they do not hold enough power to censor him further.
Either way a disgusting thing to say & sentiment that is all to prevalent in Muslim states.

 

[sparticus]

What about my theory that he's being lined up as the (voice of the) 12th imam, saviour of Islam against the evil crusaders and zionists, etc. End result armageddon and WWIII much to the delight of his puppet masters.

 

[Idris2002]

The constituency that elected him were the uneducated poor & religious. They are his bedrock support. By repeating the holocaust denials he is pandering to their prejudices. Ahmadinejad has already been censored by Iran's supreme religious council. Maybe by playing to his core he thinks he can bolster his support enough so that the supreme council feel that they do not hold enough power to censor him further.
Either way a disgusting thing to say & sentiment that is all to prevalent in Muslim states.

And the liberals have only themselves to blame for failing to appeal to those who turned to Ahmadinejad.

 

[sparticus]

Does that not assume that the elections were free and fair? You can hardy accuse the liberals of failure if the elections were rigged. Those pesky elctronic voting machines at work again

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

The constituency that elected him were the uneducated poor & religious. They are his bedrock support. By repeating the holocaust denials he is pandering to their prejudices. Ahmadinejad has already been censored by Iran's supreme religious council. Maybe by playing to his core he thinks he can bolster his support enough so that the supreme council feel that they do not hold enough power to censor him further.

agree with this part and it's prolly spot on

however wtf do you mean by this patronising bollocks... spun from a western standpoint....

Either way a disgusting thing to say & sentiment that is all to prevalent in Muslim states.

name names...

 

[Andy the Don]

agree with this part and it's prolly spot on

however wtf do you mean by this patronising bollocks... spun from a western standpoint....



name names...

The showing of the Protocals of the Elders of Zion on Egyptian TV.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1666626,00.html

 

[Idris2002]

Does that not assume that the elections were free and fair? You can hardy accuse the liberals of failure if the elections were rigged. Those pesky elctronic voting machines at work again

I didn't know that, thanks.

But the liberals do seem to be trapped in a ghetto of their own making.

Which is not altogether bad - it means the regime will fall because it can't reform itself.

 

[camouflage]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4527142.stm

I am wondering what exactly this guy hopes to acheive from all this and whether he is absolutely convinced of what he says. Scary stuff

Good thing that in the Iranian political system this guy has no power anyway eh? You see, you thought those mullahs were being un-democratic, but it turns out they just know how to control their raving-lunatic Presidents. If only America could handle theirs as well, allow him free reign to say as he pleases every now an then, give the population and the international community something to gossip about, and yet keep him well away from all those important Red Buttons.

 

[camouflage]

And the liberals have only themselves to blame for failing to appeal to those who turned to Ahmadinejad.

When you say "liberals" you could easily mean "neo-liberals". In which case the people who turned to old Froth'n'allah probably made the better choice.

 

[Ae589]

He's got a good point about Europe giving away land it didn't own. I'm looking forward to jesus' second coming so he can pick a new centre of the frigging unverse. Maybe Whitely bay or Coney island - the couls do with redevelopment.

 

[Hanfstaengl]

Estimates place the total number of Holocaust victims at up to 26 million people, although the number 9 to 11 million is usually held as more reliable. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust

Why is there so much difference in the estimated number of victims? Surely this type of discrepancy invites confusion and conspiracy theories. We need better information to counter his crazes allegations.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Estimates place the total number of Holocaust victims at up to 26 million people, although the number 9 to 11 million is usually held as more reliable. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust

Why is there so much difference in the estimated number of victims? Surely this type of discrepancy invites confusion and conspiracy theories. We need better information to counter his crazes allegations.

The problem arises from different interpretations of who comprises "a victim". Some (IMHO the more rational) label a victim as someone who suffered directly from the mass murder of European Jewry. Some organisations and interest groups, especially in the US, use a definition which defines descendants of refugees from the Nazis as "victims".

Read Norman Finkelstein's "The Holocaust Industry" for a good assessment of the situation.

 

[camouflage]

Estimates place the total number of Holocaust victims at up to 26 million people, although the number 9 to 11 million is usually held as more reliable. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust

Why is there so much difference in the estimated number of victims? Surely this type of discrepancy invites confusion and conspiracy theories. We need better information to counter his crazes allegations.

As far as I'm concerned anybody who denies the Holocaust took place is too far gone to bother with in terms of providing facts and figures and convincing them of anything. Usually religious fanatics and neo-nazi's are into such denial. 26 million people died, jews, gypsies, not-jewish Germans, Serbs, Poles and other Slavs, disabled people, homosexuals, dissidents of a thousand varieties, mixed-race Germans, Communists, anti-nazis.

Anyone who would seek to reduce it to a jewish victim-myth is talking doodoo, I would expect this of someone who actually beleives that someone bad-mouthing some god or religion should be treated more harshly then someone denying millions of human beings were murdered by a state.

In my opinion bad mouthing gods and religion is totally fine and acceptable, so put your god-toy away fella, we're talking human-life here.

 

[ViolentPanda]

As far as I'm concerned anybody who denies the Holocaust took place is too far gone to bother with in terms of providing facts and figures and convincing them of anything. Usually religious fanatics and neo-nazi's are into such denial. 26 million people died, jews, gypsies, not-jewish Germans, Serbs, Poles and other Slavs, disabled people, homosexuals, dissidents of a thousand varieties, mixed-race Germans, Communists, anti-nazis.

Anyone who would seek to reduce it to a jewish victim-myth is talking doodoo, I would expect this of someone who actually beleives that someone bad-mouthing some god or religion should be treated more harshly then someone denying millions of human beings were murdered by a state.

I fully agree, but that doesn't stop people doing it, or from complaining bitterly to the press if any other genocide (of which there have been plenty) is ever referred to as "a holocaust". I mean, I know that "holocaust" is an accurate description of the incineration of millions of people, but the press are into using hyperbole, they're not actually trying to detract from Jewish suffering.
I wish that the people who complained about shit like that would spend a bit more time doing something solid for the remaining victims (Jew and Gentile) of WW2 instead of trying to establish some sick hierarchy of suffering.

In my opinion bad mouthing gods and religion is totally fine and acceptable, so put your god-toy away fella, we're talking human-life here.

Yep. I've alwys believed in leaving religion at the door. It's private, there's no need to hassle anyone else with it, especially not as a stick to beat them with to make them feel guilty.

 

[FruitandNut]

What worries me is that a guy flakey enough to deny the Holocaust may soon be turning out up to 50 nukes per year to pass on to other even more flakey friends!

How about 'Apocalypse Soon' as a sequel to 'Apocalypse Now'?

 

[sparticus]

well this is my concern exactly, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if his supposed arch enemies (the rapture loving, neo-con psychos) weren't pulling strings behind the scenes to ensure this man appears virtually from no where to become their new bogey man and portender of armegeddon. it's all too f*cking convenient. It certainly fits their usual modus operandi

 

[oi2002]

Good thing that in the Iranian political system this guy has no power anyway eh? You see, you thought those mullahs were being un-democratic, but it turns out they just know how to control their raving-lunatic Presidents...

You don't have to spend much time round Arabs to realise that some see Hitler as a bit lax when it comes to the Jewish question.

Iranians I know are less prone to a conspriranoid worldview where Joos lie behind all evil and are appalled by Mahmoud Ahmadinejad batty posturing, there is a hint of admiration for his chutzpah. But the balloon is representitive of a signifigant swadge of Iranian opinion unfortunately. I'd not assume the Mullahs who have the real power are any less millitant on Israel, this is a core Khomenist belief, they're just wise enough not to bang on about it on Satelite TV.

I'm surprised they've not had him dragged off in chains. It looks like lunacy to antagonize DC with M1As on your border at a time when Tehrans and DCs interests in Iraq are compatable in means if not goals. It could be cunning Persian scheme that forsees detente with DC, ditching Mahmoud afterall would now be a symbolic and painless gesture to allowing DC to proclaim Iran has left the Axis Of Evil. Probably not, the Mullahs are more likely experiencing a fit of hubris brought on by the Iraqi prize DC has handed them.

Incidentally somebody told me 30% of all blogson the net are in Persian, very interesting country. I hope Ahmadinejad is banging nails in the coffin of the Mullah's brutal police state, Iranians deserve better leaders.

 

[Idris2002]

It looks like lunacy to antagonize DC with M1As on your border at a time when Tehrans and DCs interests in Iraq are compatable in means if not goals. It could be cunning Persian scheme that forsees detente with DC, ditching Mahmoud afterall would now be a symbolic and painless gesture to allowing DC to proclaim Iran has left the Axis Of Evil. Probably not, the Mullahs are more likely experiencing a fit of hubris brought on by the Iraqi prize DC has handed them.
.

I'd see it as deliberate provocation, rather than a prelude to a more diplomatic period.

 

[Streathamite]

You don't have to spend much time round Arabs to realise that some see Hitler as a bit lax when it comes to the Jewish question.

yes, but most don't, and here's the crucial point. The hostility towards jews in the arab world has ONLY come about as a result of Israel. historically, and before the zionist storm happened, jews and arabs (in fact, jews and all muslims were close, and got on OK. during the middle ages, it was the muslims/arabs who protected the jews, and the xtian crusaders who sheltered them. during WWII, the main jewish aid bodies were based in turkey. It was an ottoman sultan who invited the jews to the newly-conquered constantinople in the 1460s
there are loads of examples like that.
This is as near as it gets to a consensual opinion in the arab world; they are furious that they are having to pay the price for the west's attempt to assuage its' guilt over the holocaust and earlier oppression of the jews, and angry at their - arab - brothers getting fucked over as a result.

ETA: one minor, pedantic point; Iranians ain't arabs. They REALLY don't like it when westerners make that mistake.

 

[nino_savatte]

My first thought was "Does this cunt have a finely honed death instinct or what?" Furthermore, he is quite happy to put his own people in any future firing line with all this rhetoric. My what a macho cunt!

 

[cemertyone]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4527142.stm

I am wondering what exactly this guy hopes to acheive from all this and whether he is absolutely convinced of what he says. Scary stuff

What he`s saying is no more that what we hear from the Isreali right every fucking day...why get your knickers in a twist son....what about the calls for "transfer" of the pal people from the whole of isreal........or is it just an arab theing with you.....

 

[camouflage]

well this is my concern exactly, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if his supposed arch enemies (the rapture loving, neo-con psychos) weren't pulling strings behind the scenes to ensure this man appears virtually from no where to become their new bogey man and portender of armegeddon. it's all too f*cking convenient. It certainly fits their usual modus operandi

I agree, leaders across the muslim world probably say stuff like that all the time... well, behind closed doors anyway, and I'm sure leaders that the US isn interested in Regime Changing even say stuff like that on teevee all the time. Maybe these idiot-words are being reported now for... reasons.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

The showing of the Protocals of the Elders of Zion on Egyptian TV.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1666626,00.html

hmmm one tv program makes it endemic within arab countries just like all paddies are thick and all welsh are sheep shaggers yeah... good POV

 

[Serguei]

The hostility towards jews in the arab world has ONLY come about as a result of Israel.

It started before the foundation of the state of Israel and Holocaust. It started when poor Jewish immigrant refugees started arriving to Palestine immediately after 1917.

It was not so bad in 19th century when only wealthy immigrants could afford to come. Then the population of Arabs in Palestine grew because the European money of newcomers attracted more Arabs from other places to Palestine.

 

[Andy the Don]

hmmm one tv program makes it endemic within arab countries just like all paddies are thick and all welsh are sheep shaggers yeah... good POV

as you were Garf, I was at work & could not research in depth, but a quick "Google" gave me the following..

http://www.adl.org/holocaust/denial_ME/default.asp Anti-deformation League, maybe a wee bit pro-Zionist fr your tastes so..

http://www.york.cuny.edu/~drobnick/holbib2.html#mideast

http://www.memri.de/uebersetzungen_analysen/themen/liberal_voices/ges_holocaust_denial_21_06_05.html Middle East Research Institute

http://www.charitywire.com/charity11/00686.html Holocaust denial in Goverment sponsored press in ME.

http://groups.msn.com/Mishpocha/holocaustdenialandthearabworld.msnw

From the above, written by Anwar Sadat

"My dear Hitler! I congratulate you from the bottom of my heart. Even if you appear to have been defeated, in reality you are the victor. You succeeded in creating dissentions between Churchill, the old man, and his allies, the Sons of Satan ... Germany will be reborn in spite of the Western and Eastern powers. There will be no peace unless Germany once again becomes what she was."

Amoungst the many links y simle search produced.

So yes, holocaust denial is prevalent in many Muslim states.

 

[Andy the Don]

What he`s saying is no more that what we hear from the Isreali right every fucking day...why get your knickers in a twist son....what about the calls for "transfer" of the pal people from the whole of isreal........or is it just an arab theing with you.....

Funny but when ever people talk about the transfer of the Jews I for some reason think of....

 

[oi2002]

...ETA: one minor, pedantic point; Iranians ain't arabs. They REALLY don't like it when westerners make that mistake.

I did make a point of contrasting Iranians with the more anti-semitic Arabs.

I'd qualify that a bit by saying it's the Palestinians I've encountered along with the Egyptians and Lebanese are the least anti-semitic. It's the Gulf kingship Arabs that are by far the worst, they've been pumped full of it by there nasty little states.

I'd not blame Israel entirely for this trend, authoritarian regimes love a racial bogeyman. Expelling their millenia old Jewish populations in the 60s was as much a way for Arabs to create a sense of national unity as blow against Israel. Historically Muslim anti-semitism has always been gentler than the Christian kind, but desert Arabs have always been a tough bigoted people. If you hang round with rich Saudis you realize the ones that hate the Joos also despise the Palestinians as weaklings.