nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Oh, like Iran is unique in this regard? Pull the other one.
Iran on Edge Of Pogrom?
- Thread starter RonPrice
- Start date
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
No, but that's who we're talking on this thread.
Your default position is 'US is evil, everyone else = less evil', which is bollocks. Iran is an oppressive theocracy with a leadership that's every bit as motivated and ambitious in it's plans for power as the US, something that gets forgotten a lot.
Your default position is 'US is evil, everyone else = less evil', which is bollocks. Iran is an oppressive theocracy with a leadership that's every bit as motivated and ambitious in it's plans for power as the US, something that gets forgotten a lot.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
That's a very simplistic way to view my position, though I am not surprised. Are you looking forward to bombing Iran, kyser?
Oh, here's another question; is Iran the only state in the world that is this oppressive? You may want to check out Uzbekhistan and its leader Islam Karimov.
Oh, here's another question; is Iran the only state in the world that is this oppressive? You may want to check out Uzbekhistan and its leader Islam Karimov.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
I'm not looking forward to anyone bombing anyone else quite frankly, and at the end of the day that IS your position - Iran the plucky little country standing up to the bullying imperialists (while being played, and probably playing, the other two imperialists, Russia and China).
I'm well aware that there are MANY states as oppressive as Iran - I'm no flag waver for them either.
I'm well aware that there are MANY states as oppressive as Iran - I'm no flag waver for them either.
Backatcha Bandit
is not taking your calls
kyser_soze said:
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
So you're telling me that the tone of the reportage on Iran isn't designed to convince the masses of their duty to defend liberty and democracy by joining together and striking a blow against Iran?
I take it you recall the pre-invasion reportage in 2003? So why is Iran being singled out if there are so many other repressive regimes in the world? What about Burma? Zimbabwe? Equatorial Guinea? Honduras?
Oh and to label me "anti-American" is very simplistic...facile even.
I take it you recall the pre-invasion reportage in 2003? So why is Iran being singled out if there are so many other repressive regimes in the world? What about Burma? Zimbabwe? Equatorial Guinea? Honduras?
Oh and to label me "anti-American" is very simplistic...facile even.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
None of those are building nukes? None of them have vast oil deposits? I'm able to recognise WHY Iran is being targeted by the US internationally as opposed to say Burma or Zimbabwe, and before anyone says anything I think the IAEA should be allowed to run around Israel as well - it's not like I'm flag waving for the US.
Backatcha Bandit
is not taking your calls
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Well, I think your rush to label me "anti-American" doesn't help your argument much.
The countries that I mentioned may not have nuclear programs but when leaders like Bush talk about "ridding the world of tyranny", it is obvious that certain tyrants will be allowed to continue with impunity. Only Iran has been singled out for a stiff 'talking to' and the reasons for this are obvious; oil and revenge for 1979.
The countries that I mentioned may not have nuclear programs but when leaders like Bush talk about "ridding the world of tyranny", it is obvious that certain tyrants will be allowed to continue with impunity. Only Iran has been singled out for a stiff 'talking to' and the reasons for this are obvious; oil and revenge for 1979.
Nino: "Iran scare stories." Right-on! I mean, any nation whose president signs off on "Tom and Jerry" as the clear sign of Jews trying to dominate the world should be instilled with the utmost trust! Here-here (sic).
"Labeling Nino as anti-American." You could have simply explained to us how you are NOT that way but of course you are clearly anti-American. Nino, why must is all be an argument with you? Can you not simply discuss an issue at hand without antagnosim?
"Certain tryrants continuing with impunity." Of course, because they do not threaten the destruction of the planet with nuclear arms aimed at Tom and Jerry. Geez. Could it be, somehow, someway, Bush is right on this one?
"Labeling Nino as anti-American." You could have simply explained to us how you are NOT that way but of course you are clearly anti-American. Nino, why must is all be an argument with you? Can you not simply discuss an issue at hand without antagnosim?
"Certain tryrants continuing with impunity." Of course, because they do not threaten the destruction of the planet with nuclear arms aimed at Tom and Jerry. Geez. Could it be, somehow, someway, Bush is right on this one?
nino_savatte said:
I'd be interested in how you would deal with North Korea. Seeing as they've got umpteen missiles pointing at South Korea. And that they're so backward South Korea doesn't want to have to foot the bill to pull them into the 20th C, let alone the 21st...
nino_savatte said:
Or more realistically, not wanting a Middle East super-state...
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
rachamim18 said:
Well, I don't expect a liar and warmonger to reply with anything other than this screed. You're doing the job of the Propaganda Ministry here.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
jæd said:
I would be interested to know why it is that many people (yourself included) are prepared to lap up any negative story that comes out of Iran - especially if the story has been designed to provoke a particular response in the reader; in other words a story that has been created with specific purpose of marshalling the public mind for a war with Iran. I don't suppose you had any qualms about invading Iraq? I would also imagine that you believed the lies that accompanied the run up to the Iraq invasion too. The problem with those who accept these stories, is that they lack the ability to view reportage in a critical and objective fashion. It is much easier to accept this sort of reportage than question it.
If the press says that Iran is "evil", you will believe that.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
They're on a par with Bush IMV - a theocracy that has geopolitical ends and will use a variety of unpleasant means to achieve them. The US and Iran aren't that different really.
Kyszer: Yep, I mean Bush is only allowing one member of each minority to serve in his govt and only if they parrot the party line. Bush believes cartoons carry nefarious subliminal messages? Suuuuure (sic).
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
NO, Bush believes in The Rapture, which is why this admininstration has allowed Israel more off the leash in WRT Palestine then previous ones did. Rapturists believe in the End Times from Revelations, and that they are chosen of God to be taken up just before the (presumed) nuclear holocaust starts. Think I'm joking, do a google on 'rapture' and have a look at some of their wesites.
He's also a creationist who denies evolution, AGW and has frequently talked about the need for America to stand up for it's Christian values, in direct contradiction to the very specfici wording about separating Church and State in the US. A number of journalists have been harrassed, and others denied entry into the US for what they've written...
Bush and Ahmedinijad are both conservatives in their faith as well. So yeah, there are a lot of similaraties between them.
He's also a creationist who denies evolution, AGW and has frequently talked about the need for America to stand up for it's Christian values, in direct contradiction to the very specfici wording about separating Church and State in the US. A number of journalists have been harrassed, and others denied entry into the US for what they've written...
Bush and Ahmedinijad are both conservatives in their faith as well. So yeah, there are a lot of similaraties between them.
The difference between Bush's personal religious beliefs, and those of Ahmadinejad are that Bush lives in a true democracy. Religious clergymen do not institue policy (some try but it is not possible due to checks and balances). Iran on the other hand requires the Ayatollah's sign off. Bit of a difference.
Has Bush violated certain freedoms, of course. But he has not yet executed homosexuals, oir those living in Common Law, or limited minorities to just one representative in govt, no matter their size, and only then if that rep parrots his line.
Has Bush violated certain freedoms, of course. But he has not yet executed homosexuals, oir those living in Common Law, or limited minorities to just one representative in govt, no matter their size, and only then if that rep parrots his line.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
What's a "true democracy", R18?
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
rachamim18 said:
No, but he executes disabled, people with learning difficulties and the mentally ill.
And the US over the last 7 years without a doubt hasn't been a 'true democracy' by any stretch of the imagination.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
The US routinely executes minors and mentally ill people. Texas is especially notorious for its incarceration and execution of minors
London_Calling
Pleasant and unpatronising
Sounds about right.
kyser_soze said:
No-one lives in a true democracy. But trying to argue the US is as bad as Iran, or is anywhere approaching such a country is getting pretty tired IMO. Go to the US, go to Iran and see where you are more persecuted more for not fitting into the Govt message...
KeyboardJockey
Clowns to the Left of me
rachamim18 said:
Spot on. Although I disagree with much of what is currently US policy and am worried about what the religious conservatives are planning in the US ( I don't think that the disatisfaction with Bush will kill off the Christian loons there either) I could at least practice an alternative religion to that of the majority, choose who to sleep with, read what I want without ending up dangling from a crane by my neck.
Although living in the US would be different from living in the UK it is not a dangerous oppressive theocracy like present day Iran or Spain under Ferdinand and Isabella.
I'm not going to join the chorus of 'Iran good US bad' that some on the left are starting to indulge themselves in.
KeyboardJockey
Clowns to the Left of me
jæd said:No-one lives in a true democracy. But trying to argue the US is as bad as Iran, or is anywhere approaching such a country is getting pretty tired IMO. Go to the US, go to Iran and see where you are more persecuted more for not fitting into the Govt message...
Agree with this as well.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
jæd said:No-one lives in a true democracy. But trying to argue the US is as bad as Iran, or is anywhere approaching such a country is getting pretty tired IMO. Go to the US, go to Iran and see where you are more persecuted more for not fitting into the Govt message...
My general point was that in terms of geopolitial objectives, the US and Iran are little different, and that their leaders are very, very similar men with similar ambitions - the rest of it I just got caught up in the moment. Funny thing is the original point I was making is that the whole 'Iran-good, US=bad' rubbish is just that, rubbish.
On the 'dangling' comment KJ makes...seen the reports of lots of nooses being put up 'in jest' in the US? Been kidnapped and sent to Guantanomo with no reason given for being a Muslim? One would suspect that many people in the states would disagree and say that they are 'free' to be themselves without fear of reprisals for it.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
Well yeah, but relevant to the thread...
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
Iran want's it's own version of a ME caliphate, and control over as much oil as possible.
US wants as much oil as possible and unfair and unfettered access to other markets, both are imperialist in nature.
US wants as much oil as possible and unfair and unfettered access to other markets, both are imperialist in nature.
Spion
I hear ya
the desire may be imperialist, and they both share that, but only one of those has actually realised that and is acting as an imperialist, non? And do Iran's ambitions spread beyond Iraq really? The US actually does have influence in many oil countries around the worldkyser_soze said:
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