Iran hangs gay youths - what should be the response?

[invisibleplanet]

Two gay teens have been executed 4 days ago in Iran by hanging because they were gay. More on the story here.

An image of the exact moment when they are being hanged (which shockingly shows that both are simply - kids) can be found
here

Without going into how sad, shocking, etc this is, I'm wondering what the appropriate reaction of the world communities should be?

This is nothing but an execution on behalf of religious beliefs contrary to basic human dignity. However, respect for other cultures (even if they are fundamentalist theocracies) and non-interventionism is something which should be valued in international relations - some claim that it is exactly interventionism in Iraq and Afghanistan (also justified by human rights abuses) that played a vital role in the recent growth of the terrorism phenomenon.

Do you sit back and just watch? Do you take action? Can these things be changed at all?

What should be the response ?

Brief Research
1) AFAIK, "The Bible" ie. Tanach/Pentateuch forms the foundation for Mosaic & Halachic Law and this is where u find the death penalty for homosexual acts and NOT in the Koran, which afaik states 'lewd acts between men should be punished' but doesn't say what those acts are and doesn't specify any particular punishment.
2) 80 countries have laws that criminalise sex between same-sex consenting adults http://observer.guardian.co.uk/comm...1520086,00.html
3) "Islam presumes that a man will be drawn to beautiful youths, and admonishes the believer not to yield to temptation. Thus, homosexual desire and love are accommodated, but same-sex intercourse is prohibited, as Islam teaches that such intercourse is a violation of the natural boundaries set by Allah. Homosexuality as an attraction is not against the Sharia (which governs the physical actions, not the inner thoughts and feelings), it is only the physical action of same-sex intercourse that is punishable under the Sharia. Historically the punishment has been less severe compared to its Abrahamic counterparts: Judaism and Christianity. The Qur'an states that if a person commits the sin they can repent and save their life, though there are hadiths that later prescribe the death penalty. Early Islamic cultures, especially ones where homosexuality was entrenched into their Pagan culture were renowned for their lenient attitudes towards homosexuality." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_Islam)

The Charges
One thing to bear in mind. These youths were also alleged to have raped several younger boy children (non-consensual), not only of consensual sex with each other.

Personal opinion on executions
I don't agree with the death penalty, but when i took a look at another execution, i began to imagine how i would feel if one of these men had raped and killed a son of mine, and how i would feel (probably like killing either him, or myself): http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:...dle_east/4353449.stm+iranian+government&hl=en Isn't there an old saying, 'Let the punishment fit the crime' ? That's too much like Bronze Age Law for my liking.
British punishments have been know to be just as brutal. Tie the offender in a sack, and hang em from a tree on the outskirts of the settlement, then each time an inhabitants walks past the sack, beat them with a stick. The sack is untied and the body buried if the offender has died, or banished if they survive. The Death Penalty in Europe has only (relatively) recently been removed as a legal punishment, America still has it, and my guess is that Iran will give it up before America does.

Ideas for Action
Write to Iranian Govt/Embassy politely pointing out that it would be politically progressive and compassionate to give up the death penalty before USA.

 

[invisibleplanet]

hi invisibleplanet was particularly interested in this:

2) AFAIK, "The Bible" ie. Tanach/Pentateuch forms the foundation for Mosaic & Halachic Law and this is where u find the death penalty for homosexual acts and NOT in the Koran, which afaik states 'lewd acts between men should be punished' but doesn't say what those acts are and doesn't specify any particular punishment.

i wondered it you could provide any link on this as i can't seem to find that info on the links you already provided.

Yes.

Mosaic Law
Leviticus 18:22-23 ";You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination*. Also you shall not have intercourse with any animal to be defiled with it, nor shall any woman stand before an animal to mate with it; it is a perversion."
*to'evah

Leviticus 20:13 "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their blood guiltiness is upon them."

Halachic Law
"I read in a forum that the punishment for male homosexuality (the death penalty) and that of women homosexuality are different? I am surprised because I always thought that G-d applies the same sentences for the two sexes (as adultery for example)."
listen to the reply: http://www.rabbileff.net/shiurim/an...0-0749/0663.wma

Qu'ranic Law
Sura 4.16 If two men commit a lewd act, punish them both; if they repent and mend their ways, leave them alone—God is ready to accept repentance from those who do evil out of ignorance and soon afterwards repent: these are the ones God will forgive.

Qu'ran does not provide anything other than a simple punishment - no death penalty. Flogging is I think the punishment for sexual immorality, mentionied in Sura 24.2

Sharia Law interprets differently in different countries. Some Sharia will be based on Qu'ran (word of the big G), and some the Hadith (Analysis by religious scholar). In Saudi, a flogging or prison sentence. In Iran (Since 1990/1991 afaik) homosexuality became punishable by death penalty. This needs to be viewed carefully with the climate of the time - war killed many men in Iran - perhaps homosexuality punished by death to ensure that birth rate doesn't fall.?

Hope this helps.

 

[likesfish]

iran also killed a 17 yr old girl for having sex outside of marrige but apprantly the mullah overstepped his rules and she should have only got a light flogging
the bloke involved got off with a strong talking too
If somebody expected me to respect or live under sharia law they'd be dead

 

[TeeJay]

MILLIONS?
REALLY??
And disproportionately more than any other arab regime, or muslim regime, or any other undemocratic, illiberal regime supported by the US and/or the UK, or any other major ex- or present European colonising nation?
Evidence please.
Forthwith.

I am reposting this from a previous thread:

Saddam was Vice-President of Iraq from 1968 and President from 1979 - 2003

Saddam invaded Iran in 1980: "No one is sure of the total casualties during the Iran-Iraq war, but estimates range from 500,000 to 1 million dead, 1-2 million wounded, and more than 80,000 prisoners. There were approximately 2.5 million refugees, and whole cities were destroyed. The financial cost is estimated at a minimum of $200 billion."

Saddam invaded Kuwait in 1990: "Independent analysts generally agree the Iraqi death toll was well below initial post-war estimates. In the immediate aftermath of the war, these estimates ranged as high as 100,000 Iraqi troops killed and 300,000 wounded. According to "Gulf War Air Power Survey" by Thomas A. Keaney and Eliot A. Cohen ... there were an estimated 10-12,000 Iraqi combat deaths in the air campaign and as many as 10,000 casualties in the ground war. This analysis is based on enemy prisoner of war reports."

1990 - 2000 sanctions: "UN organizations (such as UNICEF and the WHO) have estimated between 500,000 and 1.2 million deaths were caused by the sanctions, mostly in the under-5 age group. Skeptics have estimated that only 350,000 excess deaths occurred between 1991 and 2000"

In his forthcoming trial on alleged war crimes, crimes against humanity, and genocide: "Particular attention will be paid to his activities in violent campaigns against the Kurds in the north during the Iran-Iraq War, and against the Shiites in the south in 1991 and 1999 to put down revolts." Estimates for the total number killed through internal repression vary, although "campaigns to suppress rebellious Kurds in the 1980s left 180,000 people missing and presumed dead."

(quotes from wikipedia etc)

edit: Have just seen the following "Official Iraqi documents recovered after the fall of Saddam regime suggest a staggering 5 million executions were made during Bath era alone ... after the 1991 Shia uprising over 300,000 were killed or captured never to be seen again" source

Seems like there was a actually a reason for Saddam being called "The Butcher of Baghdad". Up to 7,780,000 reasons in fact if you add up all the above numbers. I do accept that not all the figures are verified and that people will dispute Saddam's role and responsibility for these deaths, but for me there is very plausible and clear evidence that his actions led to *millions* of people losing their lives and Iraq and the wider word is far better off without him.
***************************************************
Now, Jezza: please provide some figures for other arab or muslim (etc...) regimes to back up your claim about 'proportionality'.
Evidence please.
Forthwith.

 

[sihhi]

This needs to be viewed carefully with the climate of the time - war killed many men in Iran - perhaps homosexuality punished by death to ensure that birth rate doesn't fall?

But Iranian state encourages male-to-female sex change operations to "cure" homosexuality.

 

[sihhi]

Saddam invaded Iran in 1980: "No one is sure of the total casualties during the Iran-Iraq war, but estimates range from 500,000 to 1 million dead, 1-2 million wounded, and more than 80,000 prisoners. There were approximately 2.5 million refugees, and whole cities were destroyed. The financial cost is estimated at a minimum of $200 billion."

By your logic- Saddam was only trying to liberate newly-theocratic Iran.

 

[TeeJay]

By your logic- Saddam was only trying to liberate newly-theocratic Iran.

By my logic?

 

[invisibleplanet]

But Iranian state encourages male-to-female sex change operations to "cure" homosexuality.

really ?

Before the 1979 Islamic revolution there was no particular policy regarding transsexuals. Maryam Khatoon Molkara had to put up with the kind of abuse commonplace in many countries. But those who wanted to switch sexes could if they had the cash.

As for so many Iranians, the revolution was a vital moment in her life and for a number of years her true identity was forced to exist in the shadows. The new religious government classed transsexuals and transvestites with gays and lesbians, who were condemned and faced the punishment of lashing under Iran's penal code.

And of course to those in the West it seemed anathema that anyone should want to be a woman in Iran in those early days of the Ayatollah.

By the mid-1980s Iran was locked in a bloody war with Iraq. In the early years of the revolution, moral puritanism became a scourge sweeping through the nation. Thousands of prostitutes, drug addicts and homosexuals were executed. In public places, revolutionaries challenged people who failed to abide by the strict new codes of dress and behaviour. Prison sentences and the lash became commonplace for the smallest of public moral lapses and public offices were purged of the ideologically unsound. The national trauma was amplified when Saddam Hussein's army crossed the border in September 1980.

"When the war started, I did voluntary nursing work near the front line. When I bandaged wounded men, they sometimes felt as though a woman was doing it because I was more gentle and I overheard them wondering what kind of person I was. Some of the chemically wounded patients had sores that needed to be dressed near their groins, and sometimes they implied they had sexual feelings for me."

Sometimes it's hard to be a woman. And it was an even harder time for Ms Molkara to be confused about her gender, but the medical work on the front line brought her to the attention of important figures in the government. And at this low point of enforced male sexuality, an unlikely guardian angel appeared in the guise of a patient with high connections in the new revolutionary establishment. He secured the meetings with senior officials

By 1987 Ms Molkara was being introduced to Ayatollah Khomeini himself. Within half an hour of entering Khomeini's compound, she was granted a liberating decision that changed her life - and ultimately those of many more Iranians.

The tent-like black chador - a ubiquitous badge of Iranian revolutionary womanhood - was given to her that day. She prefers to wear more modern and fetching clothes, but in a country where women's rights have often come under attack, the gift was a paradoxical symbol of Ms Molkara's newfound freedom of identity.

The decision may even have been rooted in an earlier correspondence between Ms Molkara and the leader. Because of a troubled early life, Ms Molkara had always been religious. So when the chance to have gender-swap treatment arose in the 1970s, she went to see Ayatollah Behbehani, one of the leading religious figures in the country. He performed a typical Iranian religious ceremony, an istikhareh - letting the Koran fall open and interpreting her problems according to the page that was revealed. It was the sura of Maryam, the verses in the Koran that tell the story of Jesus' mother Mary. Ayatollah Behbehani said he thought this meant that her life would be like Maryam's - a struggle.

"He said it meant I should have the operation but he said I should write to Ayatollah Khomeini, who was then in Iraq and was one of the leading Shia religious experts. Khomeini decided then that it was a religious obligation for me to have the sex change because a person needs a clear sexual identity in order to carry out their religious duties. He said that because of my feelings, I should observe all the rites specific to women, including the way they dress." Although surgery was still some years off, it was a day she rediscovered herself. Born in 1950 to a landowner on the shores of the Caspian Sea, Ms Molkara was the only child from the second of her father's eight marriages. "When I was very small I used to scream when they tried to dress me in boy's clothes and when I was taken to toy shops I wanted dolls instead of boy's toys. I played at cooking with the neighbouring girls and every night I prayed for a miracle but in the morning I looked at my body and it hadn't happened."

http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg02152.html

 

[Nigel]

It might well be, but it's irrelevant anyway. What about the Universal Declaration of Human Rights? Has Iran (or any country, for that matter) negotiated an opt-out?

Didn't think so.

PS. Iran was one of the 48 original signatories of the UDHR in 1948. Like most countries, they seem to have forgotten this...

Islamic countries adopted the Cairo Declaration Of Human Rights 1990 (CDHRI 1990), which was updated in 2020.
Arguably from those who signed up to this, it is not in opposition to Universal Declaration of Human Rights 1948 (UDHR 1948), but to compliment it, from a non secular Christian outlook on Human Rights to an Islamic one; with obvious however subtle reactionary & misogynistic Jurisprudence within the Articles. For instance Article 6 stipulates that women are equal to men, however have certain duties as women; e.g. wives and mothers!

When the CDHRI 1990 was revised in 2020 it progressed from stating that it was not now based on Sharia Law to being guided by it.

The CDHRI 1990 & 2020, was put together by the Organisation Of Islamic Cooperation, of which Iran was a major promoter, contributor and a signatory of the declaration and following conventions.
Forgive my ignorance, however skimming through it, I can't see any mention of homosexuality; I presume this would be covered under family life: Article 5.

https://www.oic-oci.org/upload/pages/conventions/en/CDHRI_2021_ENG.pdf

Cairo Declaration on Human Rights in Islam

The Elgar Encyclopedia of Human Rights is the most comprehensive reference work in the field of international human rights protection. Comprising over 340 entries, presented alphabetically, and available online and in print, the Encyclopedia addresses the full range of themes associated with the...

www.elgaronline.com

Human Rights: The Universal Declaration vs The Cairo Declaration - Middle East Centre

On the 64th anniversary of the adoption of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR), LSE Masters student Jonathan Russell explores the differences between the UDHR and the Organisation of Islam Cooperation's Cairo Declaration of Human Rights in Islam (CDHRI) and argues that the CDHRI...

blogs.lse.ac.uk

 

[Nigel]

Trots would regard their 'crime' as a 'shibboleth' which goes against their current pet project. Islam is disgusting.

There a countries that are orientated by Christian morals and Jurisprudence that have equally homophobic and misogynist laws, such as African countries like Kenya & Uganda. This misogyny and homophobia is backed and supported by the evangelical Christian right in 'developed' western countries, significantly USA & Britain.

Other Muslim countries such as Singapore have reformed old colonial anti gay legislation and predominately Muslim countries such a as Indonesia have no legislation against homosexuals, although their is much ignorance and bigotry still around this subject.

It also has to be recognised that the Ottoman Empire de-criminalised Homosexuality in 19th Century, while many western European countries were still imposing draconian sentences, pseudo scientific torturous experiments and in some cases executing gay people.

The Ottoman empire's secular history undermines sharia claims | Tehmina Kazi

Tehmina Kazi: A new paper shows 18th- and 19th-century Ottoman rulers decriminalised homosexuality and promoted women's education

www.theguardian.com

Homophobia has developed with the rise of fundamentalism significantly in liberal predominately Muslim countries such as Tunisia, Morocco, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan after the end of the cold war and the rise of the new world order's neo colonialism, both as a reaction to it or as compliable allies opposed to leftism.

Why are Kenya and Uganda cracking down on LGBTQ rights?

A new law passed in Uganda appears to be the first to outlaw merely identifying as LGBTQ, a rights group says.

www.aljazeera.com

 

[Sue]

Other Muslim countries such as Singapore have reformed old colonial anti gay legislation and predominately Muslim countries such a as Indonesia have no legislation against homosexuals, although their is much ignorance and bigotry still around this subject.

It also has to be recognised that the Ottoman Empire de-criminalised Homosexuality in 19th Century, while many western European countries were still imposing draconian sentences, pseudo scientific torturous experiments and in some cases executing gay people.

The Ottoman empire's secular history undermines sharia claims | Tehmina Kazi

Tehmina Kazi: A new paper shows 18th- and 19th-century Ottoman rulers decriminalised homosexuality and promoted women's education

www.theguardian.com

Homophobia has developed with the rise of fundamentalism significantly in liberal predominately Muslim countries such as Tunisia, Morocco, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan after the end of the cold war and the rise of the new world order's neo colonialism, both as a reaction to it or as compliable allies opposed to leftism.

Why are Kenya and Uganda cracking down on LGBTQ rights?

A new law passed in Uganda appears to be the first to outlaw merely identifying as LGBTQ, a rights group says.

www.aljazeera.com

Singapore isn't a Muslim country.

 

[Nigel]

Singapore isn't a Muslim country.

My mistake.
However it does have according to estimate between 15-20% Muslim population, who don't appear to have any desire for homophobic laws. Unless you know otherwise.

Muslim and Muslim majority countries where homosexuality is legal or at least de-criminalised include: Albania, Azerbaijan, Bahrain, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Burkina Faso, Côte d'Ivoire, Djibouti, Guinea-Bissau, Jordan, Kazakhstan, Kosovo, Kyrgyzstan, Mali, Niger, Tajikistan, Turkey, West Bank (State of Palestine) Northern Cyprus & Indonesia.

 

[Pickman's model]

There a countries that are orientated by Christian morals and Jurisprudence that have equally homophobic and misogynist laws, such as African countries like Kenya & Uganda. This misogyny and homophobia is backed and supported by the evangelical Christian right in 'developed' western countries, significantly USA & Britain.

Other Muslim countries such as Singapore have reformed old colonial anti gay legislation and predominately Muslim countries such a as Indonesia have no legislation against homosexuals, although their is much ignorance and bigotry still around this subject.

It also has to be recognised that the Ottoman Empire de-criminalised Homosexuality in 19th Century, while many western European countries were still imposing draconian sentences, pseudo scientific torturous experiments and in some cases executing gay people.

The Ottoman empire's secular history undermines sharia claims | Tehmina Kazi

Tehmina Kazi: A new paper shows 18th- and 19th-century Ottoman rulers decriminalised homosexuality and promoted women's education

www.theguardian.com

Homophobia has developed with the rise of fundamentalism significantly in liberal predominately Muslim countries such as Tunisia, Morocco, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan after the end of the cold war and the rise of the new world order's neo colonialism, both as a reaction to it or as compliable allies opposed to leftism.

Why are Kenya and Uganda cracking down on LGBTQ rights?

A new law passed in Uganda appears to be the first to outlaw merely identifying as LGBTQ, a rights group says.

www.aljazeera.com

It's been a while since ernestolynch was a regular here

 

[Spymaster]

My mistake.
However it does have according to estimate between 15-20% Muslim population, who don't appear to have any desire for homophobic laws. Unless you know otherwise.

Muslim and Muslim majority countries where homosexuality is legal or at least de-criminalised include: Albania, Azerbaijan, Bahrain, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Burkina Faso, Côte d'Ivoire, Djibouti, Guinea-Bissau, Jordan, Kazakhstan, Kosovo, Kyrgyzstan, Mali, Niger, Tajikistan, Turkey, West Bank (State of Palestine) Northern Cyprus & Indonesia.

"In some Muslim countries, homosexuality isn't illegal."

How progressive. Let's give them a big round of applause.

 

[Nigel]

It's been a while since ernestolynch was a regular here

ernestolynch ?
I thought he was banned?

 

[Pickman's model]

ernestolynch ?
I thought he was banned?

Yes, 14 years ago

 

[ID47]

My mistake.
However it does have according to estimate between 15-20% Muslim population, who don't appear to have any desire for homophobic laws. Unless you know otherwise.

Muslim and Muslim majority countries where homosexuality is legal or at least de-criminalised include: Albania, Azerbaijan, Bahrain, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Burkina Faso, Côte d'Ivoire, Djibouti, Guinea-Bissau, Jordan, Kazakhstan, Kosovo, Kyrgyzstan, Mali, Niger, Tajikistan, Turkey, West Bank (State of Palestine) Northern Cyprus & Indonesia.

Homosexuality is not legal nor decriminalised in all of Indonesia nor is Indonesia a Muslim country (Pancasila and all that). Aceh Province will punish you very, very severely for being Gay, it's illegal big time.

 

[Nigel]

Homosexuality is not legal nor decriminalised in all of Indonesia nor is Indonesia a Muslim country (Pancasila and all that). Aceh Province will punish you very, very severely for being Gay, it's illegal big time.

85-87% of the population are Muslim.
I never said it was an Islamic country, the majority of the country is muslim.
Apparently Indonesia incorporates Sharia into it's judiciary, mainly concerning civil matters such as marriage, inheritance, trading agreements etc.

I get the impression that the Indonesian government attempted to limit draconian laws in Aceh, however was incapable of imposing control over the province.

https://scholarlypublications.universiteitleiden.nl/access/item%3A2882769/view#:~:text=This%20chapter%20adresses%20the%20relationship,reference%20for%20the%20Religious%20Courts.

 

[ID47]

85-87% of the population are Muslim.
I never said it was an Islamic country, the majority of the country is muslim.
Apparently Indonesia incorporates Sharia into it's judiciary, mainly concerning civil matters such as marriage, inheritance, trading agreements etc.

I get the impression that the Indonesian government attempted to limit draconian laws in Aceh, however was incapable of imposing control over the province.

https://scholarlypublications.universiteitleiden.nl/access/item%3A2882769/view#:~:text=This%20chapter%20adresses%20the%20relationship,reference%20for%20the%20Religious%20Courts.

The post Tsunami 2005 Helsinki agreement to end the civil war in Aceh included clauses to permit autonomy and Sharia Law in certain circumstances.