Iran: brutal dicatatorship & enemy of democracy ruled by power-crazed demagogue

[butchersapron]

No, wrong i was clearly talking about the future as is evdent from the context of the quote - i was talking about change yet to come.

Feel free to tell yourself that if you like.

Thread's fucked now you've turned up anyway.

 

[fela fan]

You can take issue with what I say, just your opinion vs mine, but I don't see who made you Captain Decider of Worthy Conversations.

I want to see what people have to say about ther disjoint between the way Iran is portrayed and the fact that it's got one of the most vibrant (if proscribed) democracies in the ME. You're quite welcome to sod off though if you want.

Indeed. Kyser has decided, even though he's now twisting and turning.

What you want to discover over iran is well worthy of questioning. I think the same with various countries that get a bad press in the likes of UK and US. Iran is certainly one where there is a big disjoint.

But theorists will always be right...

 

[fela fan]

No, wrong i was clearly talking about the future as is evdent from the context of the quote - i was talking about change yet to come.

Feel free to tell yourself that if you like.

Thread's fucked now you've turned up anyway.

"You can't argue that there are millions of kids looking for real change in iran (and there are - Islam is finished in iran thank fuck)"

Not clearly at all. Looks much more like the past, perhaps with the present, but no future in sight.

And if the thread's finished, i guess you'll be hurrying along elsewhere...

Or are you furnishing more bullshit? Presumably if you turn up again, then either you're bullshitting, or the thread's not actually finished.

 

[kyser_soze]

How is it that I managed to ascertain that BA was talking about the future prospects of Islam in it's Iranian political guise, as it seems Idris, Corax and November did, and you didn't FF?

 

[fela fan]

How is it that I managed to ascertain that BA was talking about the future prospects of Islam in it's Iranian political guise, as it seems Idris, Corax and November did, and you didn't FF?

Dunno mate, you had better help me with the answer...

 

[kyser_soze]

So anyway, do you get that BA was referring to the long term prospects of Islam, not it's immediate actualité in Iran?

 

[Corax]

Yes.

 

[dylans]

I met lots of young people who made no secret of the fact that they hated the mullahs and were desperate for change. They are very educated and politically conscious. Time and time again people would tell me how they hated the theocracy and the moral police. In addition they disobeyed the mullahs all the time. When they have weddings and birthday parties, whole streets would be involved in keeping an eye out for the cops while drinking and dancing took place indoors.
The students are active and I wouldn't rule out some kind of rebellion or insurrection in the next few years, especially if demands for reform are not met. The tragedy is, every time the west attacks Iran, they make this task harder. I remember a few years ago there was a major student rebellion and George fucking Bush publicly supported it. It was crushed.

I visited Khomeini's tomb when I was there. and a young guy made friends with me and showed me around. Whispering, he pointed to the chicken wire that surrounded the tomb and explained it was placed there to stop people throwing bags of shit at the tomb.

 

[Streathamite]

I want to see what people have to say about ther disjoint between the way Iran is portrayed and the fact that it's got one of the most vibrant (if proscribed) democracies in the ME.

There's a huge disjoint and IMO the engine of that disjoint is mostly bigotry and ignorance, on the part of meejah and public alike.
The ignorance takes many forms; from those who think iranians are arabs, to the simplistic black/white view of fundamentalist Islam. the bigotry? simple; trhe Iranian people are portrayed as unthinking primitive savages, Asians and therefore The Great Scary Other. it's been thi9s way since 1979. Never mind that Isfahar is one of the most glorious sights anyone could see, or that Persia and Iraq are cradles of civilisation, that the Iran-Iraq war was down to the USA egging on Saddam, or that the Shah was a brutal dictator, the whole thing gets condensed down to Turrsm, executions, Mad Mullahs and fundamentalists.
Pahlavi was OUR scumbag, y'see.
I guess its' our fault; we the Great british Public have given a fairly clear mass indication to media owners that we like our info Sun-style

 

[Corax]

I guess its' our fault; we the Great british Public have given a fairly clear mass indication to media owners that we like our info Sun-style

Bollocks have we. Print media circulation is declining as more and more people seek a pleurality of sources on the net. Neither are the most popular sources on the net those that echo tabloid coverage.

 

[Dr Jon]

An Iranian friend recently showed me photos of the Javaherdeh (?) area where her family live.

I could have easily believed it was Switzerland - I was absolutely not expecting alpine meadows in Iran!

Some similarly interesting pics here:-

I also gather that, as has been said, most people are educated and civilised. As in UK, politics attracts the worst kind of people and that's what we see here in the media.

My friend was really shocked by my initial perception - that Iran was a desert state full of ranting religious loonies and rioting mobs!

 

[fela fan]

An Iranian friend recently showed me photos of the Javaherdeh (?) area where her family live.

I could have easily believed it was Switzerland - I was absolutely not expecting alpine meadows in Iran!

Some similarly interesting pics

What an outstanding and stunning set of photos dr jon! A most talented photographer is your friend, but in addition that is one bloody beautiful country! Unreal.

 

[TitanSound]

I recently sound engineered at a gig where an Iranian rock band were headlining. They were all in their early 20's and were telling me about how they had been locked up for 21 days for playing 'Satan's music' in public. That's rock 'n' roll to you and me folks.

 

[phildwyer]

Islam ıs so not fınıshed ın Iran. To the contrary Islamıc rule wıll soon be exported to Iraq Gaza Turkey Afghanıstan and Pakıstan. In that order.

 

[fela fan]

I'm still shaking my head in awe at those photos. Has editor or any other keen photographer seen these yet? They bloody well ought to. In fact...

 

[Crispy]

awesome photos

 

[fela fan]

awesome photos

I reckon that must be one of the finest sets of photos i've ever seen. Probably the best.

 

[Streathamite]

Bollocks have we. Print media circulation is declining as more and more people seek a pleurality of sources on the net. .

The truth is more nuanced than that. print circs sure ARE declining, but from a very mighty peak indeed. something like 34-36 million people still saw a daily paper today. There's also no reason to believe that a lack of popular credibility is the causal factor, or that it is a comment on the loathsomeness of the mass print media; more likely that someone with a PC on their desk will therefore have no reason to pay for what gets updated to their desk, for free.

Neither are the most popular sources on the net those that echo tabloid coverage

The sun, the mail and sky's websites are doing pretty well....

 

[Dr Jon]

Just spotted this article:

... But regardless of the outcome of the election, it is apparent that the Iranian political elite understand that the Iranian people will no longer tolerate an administration which has isolated them from the outside world, earned their country a series of resolutions and sanctions from the United Nations Security Council, delivered them a fragile economy, and overseen a notorious human-rights record. Iranians want change. One way or another, they will get it.

 

[fela fan]

Just spotted this article:

So many young people in iran! Sounds like positive times to me based on that article. Good luck to them all, and i (forlornly?) hope the yanks keep their grubby hands out of the picture.

 

[fela fan]

From the website dr jon's article came from is another one here discussing the lives of women in iran:

http://www.opendemocracy.net/article/iranian-women-and-the-islamic-republic

I'm wondering what those on this thread, or anybody else, who have been to iran noticed in their time there in ralation to the 'freedom', or not, of women. It would seem to me that the current level of women's freedoms and rights in iran would be a good indicator for how iranian society is developing in general.

 

[dylans]

From the website dr jon's article came from is another one here discussing the lives of women in iran:

http://www.opendemocracy.net/article/iranian-women-and-the-islamic-republic

I'm wondering what those on this thread, or anybody else, who have been to iran noticed in their time there in ralation to the 'freedom', or not, of women. It would seem to me that the current level of women's freedoms and rights in iran would be a good indicator for how iranian society is developing in general.

I met loads of young women in Iran. I got the impression that the chador wearing image of women struggling down the road adjusting an unwieldy blanket was a provincial image. Although I saw it in Tehran, it tended to be older women . Most young women wore a headscarf, not unlike that seen in Istanbul or Cairo and a coat and jeans. I had women come up to me in public places like bus stations and cafes all the time and were never afraid to talk to me.
I had women give me their addresses quite openly and invite me to their family homes.

Contrast this to Pakistan for example and there I never met any women. Pakistan is simply the most fundamentalist place I've ever been.

Iranians are incredibly hospitable people and a 5 minute conversation (the english speaker would find you) would usually lead to an invitation to stay in their homes where I would meet sisters, wives and mothers etc. An evening in an Iranian home would always lead to political conversations and I never found Iranians to be nervous or shy about talking quite openly about the revolution and the regime or their aspirations for greater freedom and contact with the world.

Most Iranians I met would say the same thing, that the revolution was good, the Shah was a bastard but that the Mullahs stole the revolution from them.

Whatever happens in this election (and don't expect major changes even if Ahmedabad loses) the impetus for change is there. It is a dynamic that the Mullahs will find harder and harder to keep bottled up. There is definitely a conflict brewing between the aspirations of its people many of whom are young and educated and the degree of freedom that the Mullahs will allow. This is particularly true in the cities like Shiraz, Esfahan and Tehran. There is an urban/rural divide in Iran with the countryside more traditional and the cities much more sophisticated. Much of Ahmadebad's support comes from the provinces whereas the cities are much more radical and reform minded.

One more thing, everyone in Iran believed in Iran's right to a nuclear option.They would point out that Israel is a threat to them, not they to it. Israel has nuclear weapons, Israel is occupying palestinian land. Israel has attacked Iraq and Syria. Israel has plans to attack them. They see Nuclear weapons as a necessity while Israel has the bomb. They point out that Iran has supported regional demands for a nuclear free middle east while Israel has refused to sign. A regional nuke free treaty is the only way that Iran would commit to a non nuclear policy. While Israel has the bomb, Iran will try to get it and eventually succeed. This is supported by every Iranian that I met. A confrontation with the west over nukes will unite every Iranian against the west, however much they hate the Mullahs and the secret police.The only way to persuade Iran to not go the nuclear path would be for a regional nuclear treaty and a commitment by Israel to scrap the bomb.

 

[slaar]

From the website dr jon's article came from is another one here discussing the lives of women in iran:

http://www.opendemocracy.net/article/iranian-women-and-the-islamic-republic

I'm wondering what those on this thread, or anybody else, who have been to iran noticed in their time there in ralation to the 'freedom', or not, of women. It would seem to me that the current level of women's freedoms and rights in iran would be a good indicator for how iranian society is developing in general.

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinio...-to-crush-any-hope-of-revolution-1703225.html

Only one month ago, a 22-year-old woman was dragged shrieking to the gallows as she pleaded with her mother on a mobile phone to save her. Delara Darabi was hanged for a murder supposedly committed – if indeed she was guilty – at the age of 17.

Some way to go, perhaps.

But yes, compared with Pakistan or Afghanistan in the cities at least it sounds like there's a lot more freedom. I'd love to go.

 

[fela fan]

Well, the above two posts have strikingly different news! Interestingly, considering the main thrust of this thread, one story is from somebody who went to the country, while the other story is from the british media!!

It does seem somewhat incongruous that a woman being led - dragged should i say - to the gallows should have a mobile phone in her hand!!! And she had phoned her mum to save her. Why was her mum not there??!

Sounds like typical 'dressing up' that journos for the british sensationalist media are always concocting. And of course, that old chestnut, how could a country like iran have anything resembling JUSTICE. No no no, that is the preserve of the BRITISH.

The above two posts illustrate perfectly the difference in a country between a normal person's experiences of it, and a british or american journalist's sensationalist version of life there. This thread summed up in two adjacent posts. Thanks must go to dylans and slaar.

Obviously much of iran is nothing like the likes of saudi, pakistan, or afghanistan, the real axis of male religious evil...

 

[butchersapron]

See how easy some people slide into defence and complicity? Exactly the sort of thing i was warning about with my points to the OP. I must say, what a well reserched and supported argument fela -congratulations you apologist dolt. That report that you're dimissing on no evidence comes from your hero Rebert Fisk "one of the world's best in journalism." was i believe, your previously offered praise for the writer and his work - you foolish foolish man.

As regards the above posts, the guardian of the system ahve made clear that any chnage from within is only going to be what they allow and support. A quote from the political chief of the Revolutionary Guard, General Yadollah Javani

There are many indications that some extremist groups, have designed a colourful revolution ... using a specific colour for the first time in an election.... Any movement for a velvet revolution in Iran will be nipped in the bud.

It's been clear to the elite that for some time now that Ahmadinejad has thrown away all the opportunities offered by the US failure in Iraq - if anything the US stranglehold on international investment in Iran has tightened and they need something to be done to unblock the pipe. The 'reformer' Mousavi will offer a friendly outward face whilst continuing internal neo-liberal attacks -in fact the two are predciated on each other. For a 'reformer' he's a long ugly record for cracking down violently om political dissent as well.

 

[fela fan]

Well well, and that article was by fisk!! Amazing. One of the few respected reporters writing for the british media.

I still stand by my post just now, but it's kind of fascinating that a writer who i implicitly respect for his writing should write that (i mean the bit that slaar quoted). In reading his full article though, i must say it seems sort of inserted. It doesn't really belong to the rest of his report. And his article is definitely western-slanted, banging on about nuclear stuff. How about a report that tells us about the election there through iranian's eyes? Dylans' report about the typical iranian in the street much better explains the link between iran and nuclear power and/or weapons than fisk's does.

Interesting...

 

[fela fan]

See how easy some people slide into defence and complicity? Exactly the sort of thing i was warning about with my points to the OP. I must say, what a well reserched and supported argument fela -congratulations you apologist dolt. That report that you're dimissing on no evidence comes from your hero Rebert Fisk "one of the world's best in journalism." you foolish foolish man.

Well you intellectual snob, see my following post after i had then seen who wrote that article. It just goes to show that you can't trust anyone in full. Always retain a skeptical reaction. And if i'm being foolish for disagreeing with a writer that i admire, keeping an open mind, then i prefer to remain the fool.

And i thought i'd already ruined the thread, what the fuck are you doing back here man?

As for the complicity you talk of, that quite accurately talks about you in fact. Funny that. Now, get off this ruined thread.

 

[butchersapron]

Jesus wept, yes Robert Fisk of all people allowed something so damning to be inserted into his report with no fuss. Unbelievable stupidty. So nice of you to actually read the report before dmaning it for a second time. I suppsoe we should be greatful for small merices.

 

[rennie]

The pics are beautiful, the only province that's missing is Ahvaz (i think).

 

[slaar]

Well, the above two posts have strikingly different news! Interestingly, considering the main thrust of this thread, one story is from somebody who went to the country, while the other story is from the british media!!

It does seem somewhat incongruous that a woman being led - dragged should i say - to the gallows should have a mobile phone in her hand!!! And she had phoned her mum to save her. Why was her mum not there??!

Sounds like typical 'dressing up' that journos for the british sensationalist media are always concocting. And of course, that old chestnut, how could a country like iran have anything resembling JUSTICE. No no no, that is the preserve of the BRITISH.

The above two posts illustrate perfectly the difference in a country between a normal person's experiences of it, and a british or american journalist's sensationalist version of life there. This thread summed up in two adjacent posts. Thanks must go to dylans and slaar.

Obviously much of iran is nothing like the likes of saudi, pakistan, or afghanistan, the real axis of male religious evil...

I don't need to trouble you with the Robert Fisk point, fela, because butchers has kindly already pointed it out.

But I will just say that the reason her mother was not there is because she was executed at not more than a couple of hours' notice, having been in custody for months.

You do understand that visiting a country doesn't mean you fully understand what's going on, don't you? Not that I'd knock people traveling there and meeting some of the lovely Iranian people. But to think that means then the fact it's run by some pretty unsavoury characters is fine or that the stories are somehow made up is just weird.