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IPCC: Conclusion on G20 & general policing of protests

Don't hold your breath. There are sufficient numbers of people who simply use large-scale protest as cover for kicking the fuck out of some coppers and / or engaging in a little arson and looting that that is highly unlikely to happen. :( :( No matter how much the legitimate protest movement try to ensure that there is no problem (and they engage to a very significant extent to try and achieve that now) they simply do not have any control or influence over the fuckwits.
if what you say's true, then i'm sure you can point to some examples from the largest demonstrations over the last decade, like vast foxhunters demo (the 400,000 one), or the anti-war demonstration of 2003.
 
What on earth makes you think they wouldn't have "got away with them" for over ten years if they were in the Manual ... :confused: :confused: Surely the logic is that if they were they'd have "got away with them" for even longer?

only if you use a rather twisted logic and a host of unsustainable assertions.

Deniability is key. And not killing anyone.
 
Deniability is key.
Please explain how you can deny doing something that is on prime-time TV and a million mobiles on the basis that "it is not in the Manual so it can't have happened" ... :rolleyes:

(And, more to the point, if that is possible, why aren't they just doing the same again now? :confused:)
 
if what you say's true
(a) where did I say that it happened at all large demos? (and thank you for showing that not all demos that are have a police present turn into the same sort of fracas as G20 ...)
(b) why the fuck should I engage with you as you have clearly demonstrated on several threads today that you are not at all interested in discussing any substantive issues and are just getting your pathetic rocks off by scoring internet-warrior points with your little fuck buddies ... :rolleyes:
 
Please explain how you can deny doing something that is on prime-time TV and a million mobiles on the basis that "it is not in the Manual so it can't have happened" ... :rolleyes:

(And, more to the point, if that is possible, why aren't they just doing the same again now? :confused:)

god, are you being deliberately dim? Or is it just your natural coppers duplicitousness?

Fact is, until tomlinson was killed in a kettle, it could be denied and/or ignored as unimportant. not writing it down means it is much harder to blame anyone high up.
 
irrelevant, it was his death that made it into a significant public issue that could no longer be simply ignored.
 
What on earth makes you think they wouldn't have "got away with them" for over ten years if they were in the Manual ... :confused: :confused: Surely the logic is that if they were they'd have "got away with them" for even longer?
I don't reckon logic and procedure are the biggest factors in this, though, detective boy. To a great extent, it doesn't matter whether tactics where or weren't part of the official procedures, because your 'average' protester wouldn't be reading the small print, they would just have been assuming that tactics -whether official or shall we say 'undocumented' - wouldn't be brutal and inhumane. The biggest factor has actuallly been mobile video and YouTube. Because before police would have been able to blame any unrest on protesters as opposed to their own aggressive tactics. It would have been the word of the police against that of the protesters and of course your average politically inactive Joe Public at home would have taken the word of the police and assumed the protesters were the trouble makers and not the victims of police brutality. I'd argue that the excessive use of force is indicative of police practices generally in relation to protests but it's just that this time they were caught off guard and caught out by new media. And this time what actually happened could be seen by the public. How many times in previous years have officers struck a woman and got away with it because people would assume either she was lying or it was an accidental as opposed to deliberate strike or that if she was hit then she must have done something to deserve it. And how many men have been struck by police officers and then subsequently died a short time afterwards? And the police have said it was a fall or a heart attack or something else and covered up the fact that the deceased had been assaulted by a police officer shortly before they died? It's causing, I think, a reassessment of general public opinion about the police, their trustworthiness - if they've tried to cover these up how many other cover ups have happened when people didn't have mobile video and YouTube?
 
The ipcc appear to have been happy to sweep this under the carpet until that video surfaced.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/aug/07/ian-tomlinson-death-police-memos

They need to explain why they appear to have taken whatever the police were saying at face value without carrying out a proper investigation

Although I'm not seeing anything substantially new being brought to light there, it's reminding me of how appallingly pathetic the IPCC were.

There's countless things to highlight, but the one that gets me at this minute - turning up at the Guardian with the Police. Now, let's just imagine that at the time the IPCC genuinely thought that keeping the footage, temporarily, to themselves was the best thing for the investigation... but turning up with a representative from an organisation you're potentially investigating? WTF?

If I was, say, the RSPCA, would I got to meet a 3rd a party with critical evidence about illegal hunting, and say "Hi, I'm Dave from the RSPCA, oh and this is Pete - from the local hunt."

Bonkers.
 
The Metropolitan Police will not be reprimanding officers who allegedly kicked and struck a woman with shields and batons at the G20 London protests.
The woman, who has not been named, complained to the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) that the actions of officers, including one from Richmond Police, left her with bruising to her arms and legs and heavy vaginal bleeding - which a GP said afterwards could have been a miscarriage.
http://tinyurl.com/mxd5g5

police from richmond have tw on their shoulders.
 
To a great extent, it doesn't matter whether tactics where or weren't part of the official procedures, because your 'average' protester wouldn't be reading the small print,
I agree ... but we weren't discussing the Manual in that context - belboid was arguing that the police had deliberately not mentioned the tactic in the Manual so they could get away with using it without anyone noticing.

I'd argue that the excessive use of force is indicative of police practices generally in relation to protests but it's just that this time they were caught off guard and caught out by new media.
There was little, if anything, different about the tactics used at G20 from those used at numerous other protests, etc. over the last ten years (and dating back at least to the MayDay protests around the millenium. Many (if not all) of these have been caught on camera and well-publicised - there have been threads on here linking to footage of many.

As for whether things have changed over time and the use of force has become generally more excessive, I think you are probably right to some extent. This cannot be considered in isolation from whether the nature of protest has changed ... and it has, significantly so. There are now far more examples of groups attending protests actually setting out to cause significant damage and to actually attack police lines. This spiral of more violence offered / more aggressive tactics being developed and used has clearly taken place and we could argue all day about "who started it".

The use of more aggressive tactics to control crowds (as opposed to resisting some form of attack or resistance) has, I think, become more commonplace and, in the context of a particular protest (or part of a protest) that has probably caused the resistance that was then encountered. When, where and how to use the tactics definitely needs to be reviewed - anything that is used and precipitates disorder and violence must be viewed as a failure (in the same way as an individual encounter which degenerates into violence when it was not violent originally must be considered a failure of other, non-violent tactics).

How many times in previous years have officers struck a woman ...
Lots. Why dilute your argument by adding the emotive "striking of a woman"? Women are perfectly capable of violence and should have no automatic protection from the lawful use of force in response just because of their gender.

And how many men have been struck by police officers and then subsequently died a short time afterwards?
Very few as (a) very few people die after a pretty minor assault; (b) very few people die in protests; (c) deaths in protest situations tend to come to notice (the average protestor or police officer doesn't step over a dead body without mentioning it to someone and wander off home leaving it lying on the pavement); (d) any death in such circumstance would necessitate an inquest and inquests are held in public - the media may be expected to notice ... and (e) deaths in such circumstances would be reported to the IPCC (and the PCA and it's other predecessors) who again publish public reports.

how many other cover ups have happened when people didn't have mobile video and YouTube?
None? Or are you suggesting that for the past decade at least no-one has worked out how to use the on switch ... :confused:

You make some valid points and raise some very important issues ... but there is no need to bolster them with shroud-waving and scare-mongering. People (rightly) condemn the hyping of the "War on Terror", why just copy that? :confused: :(
 
The ipcc appear to have been happy to sweep this under the carpet until that video surfaced.
I'm not sure the sequence of events can be characterised as them "sweeping it under the carpet". In any sudden (initially unexplained) death, there is a period in which there is a "shall we, shan't we" mount a full homicide investigation. Not least due to wasting scarce resources, full investigations are not launched until non-crime explanations are eliminated. This frequently (as in this case) means waiting for the cause of death from a post-mortem. Here the result indicated that the death was apparently not homicide (although it is not unusual for heart attacks to follow from confrontation / minor assault, they are almost always at the time of the confrontation / assault and this was known not to be the case here on the basis of independent witnesses to the actual collapse).

In the meantime, however, whilst awaiting the PM result or whatever, all necessary steps should be taken to secure evidence (from scene examination, witness enquiries or whatever) - if it tunrs out it is homicide you can't come back and do it later (at least not as well) but if it isn't the only thing that has been wasted is the time taken in the enquiries.

The IPCC were overseeing the initial investigation and there is nothing to say that they would not have continued to oversee it even if the video had not surfaced - they may have decided to entirely exit from the case but that would not normally be the case - even if they did not take any active role they would normally still receive the final report.

That said, I think if the decisions had been mine I would have erred on the side of caution significantly more. The initial referral to the IPCC was right. If I was the IPCC I would have immediately taken over the investigation, at least as a managed investigation, and would have taken immediate steps to investigate the time line back from the point of collapse to ensure there was no physical confrontation which may have been linked to the collapse. If I had knowledge of the marks which were apparently on the body (and if they had not been reported by the pathologist there would be serious questions to ask of them - unfortunately for some reason the Coroner (and it is their decision, not the police's) appears to have appointed an improperly authorised pathologist)) then I would definitely do so, even if I hadn't originally. My time line would go back probably to him leaving his paper kiosk and I would want to fill in everything that happened to him since (as was in fact done to some extent by the media in the following days).

There are definitely questions to be asked of the IPCC as to why they decided not to intervene more robustly initially and (if they did not) why the police and IPCC did not proactively try to pursue the time line back from the point of collapse.
 
Although I'm not seeing anything substantially new being brought to light there, it's reminding me of how appallingly pathetic the IPCC were.
Unfortunately, due to their absolute (and understandable) refusal to employ investigators or Commissioners with any police background, the IPCC has been pretty much fucked from the outset with respect to investigative skills and ability. They initially did not want to have any police secondments / ex-police at all but eventually realised that the skills were simply not available anywhere else and so they employed seconded or ex-police Senior Investigating Officers at the SIO level. Unfortuately, whilst that provided some knowledge and experience of serious reactive investigations, they could not do everything in an investigation and there were still massive issues at both the operational and strategic levels of investigations.

In short they sacrificed competence for the symbolism of independence. Competent, entirely independent investigators would of course be the ideal ... but if that couldn't be achieved I really don't think that so much competence should have been sacrificed for independence. (They were also massively underresourced from the outste too)

I would have hoped that by now they would have addressed this to some extent ... but my contact with them suggests that things have actually got worse, not better... :(
 
As for whether things have changed over time and the use of force has become generally more excessive, I think you are probably right to some extent. This cannot be considered in isolation from whether the nature of protest has changed ... and it has, significantly so. There are now far more examples of groups attending protests actually setting out to cause significant damage and to actually attack police lines. This spiral of more violence offered / more aggressive tactics being developed and used has clearly taken place and we could argue all day about "who started it".

sorry db, this is just bollocks, a minor scuffle outside the israeli embassy and rbs getting a window kicked in are nothing compared to what was going on eg j18, the first couple of maydays, when the police tactics used at G20 were first introduced

after j18 it would have been difficult to pull off a public relationships counter attack like this after the public had been shown pages and pages of smashed up mcdonalds, vandalised cenotaphs, churchill's new haircut, burning cop vans etc on pages 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,13,15,17,21,22,233 of the redtops

at the G20 the trouble was mild, contained and there was little violence directed at actual coppers - there werent the numbers there to cause anything like the fun we had in the city last time and most people werent up for it anyway - the climate campers are sensitive souls and have never seen what street violence in either direction looks like

and given that this was all one way violence bar a broken window then it's no surprised it shocked the peaceful fluffies at the climate camp and the assorted press and onlookers who captured a lot of the footage
 
sorry db, this is just bollocks
It isn't ... because I was referring to that sort of timescale as the progression of more confrontational protest (mid-90s onwards) - maybe not increasing in the extent of the confrontation since then, but in the frequency with which parts at least were used.

I would relatively agree that G20 was a pretty mild example, but my point was that the increase in confrontation had led to the police developing new more aggressive tactics to deal with them ... and they have now become a fairly standard first approach, even when the actual situation doesn't in itslef need it.

(Something similar happened with football violence - levels increase, police develop more aggressive tactics, they then become the norm and all football fans are treated as if they are about to kick off).
 
the progression of more confrontational protest (mid-90s onwards)


The best recruting-sergeant for which was, of course, police treatment of fluffy-as-fuck events like the Criminal Justice Bill protests in the early 90s.


As you implied about the football - if the only tool they have is a hammer... every problem turns into a nail.
 
Violence as a first resort to peaceful, but disruptive protest.

That's what we're discussing. And I'm against it :mad:
 
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