Iowa Caucus - 2008

[Yuwipi Woman]

I don't see how protectionish helps poor people.

.

That's the problem with Conservatives. They tend to be either/or, black/white thinkers. The alternative to free trade doesn't have to be protectionism.

Have I ever told you about the Vice Grip plant in Beatrice, Neb?

The guy who invented Vice Grips was from there. If you are at all a tool person they are one of the best tools ever invented. The problem was that he had to compete with cheap knockoffs of the product that he himself invented. So he sells out and they move the plant to China. From there they encounted all kinds of supply problems. They couldnt' get quality steel. The Chinese workers had difficulty getting the manufacturing equipment running. They ended up closing that plant as well and moving it to Mexico--at a huge loss. So now they're trying to get things up and running in Mexico just as the devaluation of the dollar makes manufacturing them in the States a good value.

Now the alternative I'm advocating is to have our corrupt administration get off their dead ass and negotiate some fair intellectual property enforcement protections with China.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Not to keep sticking it to you mears but shouldn't the US government be concerned with jobs for its own citizens first? Why do clock punching republicans automatically defend anything big business does?

Remember when Bush Sr marveled at a scanner when he went into a grocery store? They are not us and we aren't them. They are not our friends. They don't know us.

Rudy Giuliani is similarly out of touch with the rest of us:

Campaigning in Alabama on Tuesday, the former New York City mayor portrayed himself as a fiscal conservative and an aggressive fighter of terrorism who has a lot in common with the Deep South state.

But when asked about more mundane matters like the price of some basic staples Giuliani had trouble with a reporter's question.

"A gallon of milk is probably about a $1.50, a loaf of bread about a $1.25, $1.30," he said.

A check of the Web site for D'Agostino supermarket on Manhattan's Upper East Side showed a gallon of milk priced at $4.19 and a loaf of white bread at $2.99 to $3.39. In Montgomery, Ala., a gallon of milk goes for about $3.39 and bread is about $2.

http://www.abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=3028463

 

[dilute micro]

Rudy Giuliani is similarly out of touch with the rest of us:



http://www.abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=3028463

Giuliani is probably thinking of the last time he bought milk.

 

[mears]

That's the problem with Conservatives. They tend to be either/or, black/white thinkers. The alternative to free trade doesn't have to be protectionism.

Have I ever told you about the Vice Grip plant in Beatrice, Neb?

The guy who invented Vice Grips was from there. If you are at all a tool person they are one of the best tools ever invented. The problem was that he had to compete with cheap knockoffs of the product that he himself invented. So he sells out and they move the plant to China. From there they encounted all kinds of supply problems. They couldnt' get quality steel. The Chinese workers had difficulty getting the manufacturing equipment running. They ended up closing that plant as well and moving it to Mexico--at a huge loss. So now they're trying to get things up and running in Mexico just as the devaluation of the dollar makes manufacturing them in the States a good value.

Now the alternative I'm advocating is to have our corrupt administration get off their dead ass and negotiate some fair intellectual property enforcement protections with China.

Property rights are a big facet of any negotiations with the Chinese, and yes, the Chinese need to crack down. Tools, DVD's, CD's and hand bags are all copied in China and the Chinese do little about it.

This is no reason to start a trade war and both sides know it. The US also sells tons of grain and billions of dollars in planes to China, US corporations (like GE) make good profits in China. This is all positive, we should brake down walls, not build them up.

 

[yield]

Property rights are a big facet of any negotiations with the Chinese, and yes, the Chinese need to crack down. Tools, DVD's, CD's and hand bags are all copied in China and the Chinese do little about it.

What about those patents and intellectual rights that the USA, and USSR, looted at the end of WW2?

This is no reason to start a trade war and both sides know it.

Remember those stories about lead pain on childrens toys, made in China, from a little while ago? Could be the start.

The US also sells tons of grain and billions of dollars in planes to China, US corporations (like GE) make good profits in China.

How American are a lot of those large multinationals? Halliburton moving headquarters to Dubai.

This is all positive, we should brake down walls, not build them up.

How is the U.S.- Mexico Border Fence Plan?

 

[mears]

What about those patents and intellectual rights that the USA, and USSR, looted at the end of WW2?



Remember those stories about lead pain on childrens toys, made in China, from a little while ago? Could be the start.



How American are a lot of those large multinationals? Halliburton moving headquarters to Dubai.



How is the U.S.- Mexico Border Fence Plan?

What about those patents and intellectual property rights the USA and USSR stole? Give me an example and we shall go over it.

You think we sould scrap trade deals because of a little lead paint? American companies are not forced to trade with the Chinese, they can seek out any distributor, buyer of seller they desire. That is private industries problem and they being big boys and girls can handle themselves, or just go out of business.

Hallibutron is a company not beholden to any country, even the US. Look, if the boys in Dubai are willing to shell out millions just to move a few hundred administrative staff to Dubai (because that is all a "corporate headquarters" really is) than they are the ones being shafted.

Not sure what the US-Mexico border has to do with it.

 

[mears]

So the same could be said when somebody complains about lead in their kid's toys and HMOs that work hard to not provide health care... Capital doesn't think. People do and that's why sweatshops exist and lead paint on toys.

I'm not a republican, democrat or independent. I am a citizen and that is supposed to matter. These candidates are supposed to care about people and not capital or globalization. I'm not going to play the game again where they pretend that I matter to get a vote.

The people are affected by the flight of capital and globalization. Capital investment from Europe (and really from the British Empire) was the main ingredient to the succes of the US economy in the 19th and 20th centuries, my opinion of course.

Bush is right, we should welcome foreign investment, even from soverign wealth funds from the Middle East because foreign investment is good for third world countries and it is good for western, industrialized countries.

 

[nino_savatte]

This is the same 19th century US economy that was blighted by no less than 7 panics, most of them caused by over-speculation and greed.

 

[nino_savatte]

Hallibutron is a company not beholden to any country, even the US. Look, if the boys in Dubai are willing to shell out millions just to move a few hundred administrative staff to Dubai (because that is all a "corporate headquarters" really is) than they are the ones being shafted.

That's because Halliburton have well-placed insiders within the corridors of power. Cheney may have resigned his position as CEO but no one should be in any doubt as to who the main architects of the war were; and how Halliburton and its subsidiaries stood to gain from the handing out of preferential contracts under the rather convenient LOGCAP system (instituted under Reagan).

I guess you've never heard of the military-industrial complex - hein?

 

[mears]

Rudy Giuliani is similarly out of touch with the rest of us:



http://www.abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=3028463

What politicians do you think are in touch?

 

[sleaterkinney]

I don't see how protectionish helps poor people.

What, like all the trade subsides us farmers have for example?.

 

[mears]

What, like all the trade subsides us farmers have for example?.

All America all the time

I am sure you know about European farm subsidies, those which France struggles so much to keep intact. You just failed to mention them I am sure.

This is where both the US and EU need to come together and break down these crazy subsidies to their agricultural producers. Why farming has to be such a protected industry is way beyond me. I mean what other business has the government bail you out when you go bellyup?

What a joke. I am sure you all agree with this.

 

[Crispy]

As I understand it, the argument is a national security one. Although it makes economic sense to rely on the cheapest source of food, such sources cannot be garunteed, therefore the indiginous farming industry must be maintained as a safety measure.

Not that this is a particularly good reason, or that the "subsidise it to hell and back" reaction to that danger is the right one.

 

[nino_savatte]

What mears would like you to ignore

Mears says that Halliburton is not "beholden to any state", overlooking the fact that Halliburton and its subsidiaries are in the driving seat of US foreign policy. The aim is not to create 'peace' or 'stability' but to make profits - profits from the deaths of others.

It was Dick Cheney, as defense secretary in 1992, who spearheaded the movement to privatize most of the military's civil logistics activities. Under the direction of Secretary Cheney, the Pentagon paid $9 million to Halliburton's subsidiary, KBR, to conduct a study to determine whether private companies like itself should handle all of the military's civil logistics. KBR's classified study concluded that greater privatization of logistics was in the government's best interest. Shortly thereafter, on August 3, 1992, Secretary Cheney awarded the first comprehensive LOGCAP contract to KBR. The Washington Post reported "The Pentagon chose [KBR] to carry out the study and subsequently selected the company to implement its own plan." Three years later, in 1995, Halliburton hired Cheney as its CEO.

In 1997, two years after Cheney became CEO of Halliburton, KBR's LOGCAP contract was not renewed and the government alleged the company engaged in fraudulent billing practices. The independent auditing arm of Congress, the GAO, had criticized KBR's performance during America's war in the Balkans. GAO said KBR's cost-overruns in the Balkans inflated the original contract price by 32 percent. After KBR was effectively fired by the Army in 1997, the LOGCAP contract was awarded to Halliburton competitor DynCorp. But, after Cheney became vice president in 2001, DynCorp was fired and KBR was re-awarded the contract.http://www.halliburtonwatch.org/about_hal/logcap.html

More on LOGCAP here
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/army/logcap.htm

 

[mears]

As I understand it, the argument is a national security one. Although it makes economic sense to rely on the cheapest source of food, such sources cannot be garunteed, therefore the indiginous farming industry must be maintained as a safety measure.

Not that this is a particularly good reason, or that the "subsidise it to hell and back" reaction to that danger is the right one.

I think its a blatantly political argument. Its a give away to rural voters in the US and EU whose farmers can easily feed their native population, subsidies or not.

I would imagine most of us agree on this around here.

Right?

 

[newharper]

All America all the time

I I mean what other business has the government bail you out when you go bellyup?

Banking.

 

[Yossarian]

All America all the time

Yeah, what crazy fool went and dragged America into a discussion on the Iowa caucuses?

 

[Crispy]

Yeah, what crazy fool went and dragged America into a discussion on the Iowa caucuses?

What you talking about america for? You're just jealous