IOF; Top brass ordered civilians cluster-bombed

[phildwyer]

Well, Zionism played well into the hands of European anti-Semites, who felt vindicated in their beliefs that Jewish people were 'nothing like them' and 'subhuman'.

Absolute ignorant rubbish. In reality, European anti-semites supported Zionism. Theodor Herzl was correct when he wrote that "Anti-Semites will become our surest friends, anti-Semitic countries our allies.”

 

[rachamim18]

Weltweit: Israel abides by Geneva and all other Conventions it has signed off on. Sadly for you, cluster munitions do not contravene any convention as long as they are not AIMED at civilian areas with no military payoff.

Moono: There you go again with your Nazi fantasies, arbeit macht frei. Whatever. Somethings can be excused on your youth but others...One just hopes that you will one day recognise the error of your ways. Personality time over, now back to the thread...

"Soldiers just work is the attitude that made the Death Camps work?" I offer that you know very little about both soldiers AND Camps. Please study both since you seem to have at least a passing interest in both.

"Check out the views of Avigdor Lieberman, a memeber of Israel's Govt." First of all, Israel is a liberal democracy with a coalition govt. different memebrs represent different demographics and say things for different POLITICAL reasons.

Mr. Lieberman has never expressed the things you accuse him of. He did float an idea that would redraw our borders leaving up to 40% of our Arab citizens outside of our borders. They would not be forced to stay there, the choice would have been theirs. The object was to condolidate a weak part of our nation.

He also called for treason charges to be brought against some Arab M.K.s who recently visited both Syria and Lebanon DURING the war in Lebanon. The ministers expressed solidarity with the enemy and that is, the epitome of treason. However, we do not have a death penalty for that so again you were wrong. If only we did...

DapperDon: "If they thought they could get away with it they would." Um, how do you neatly explain away the almost one million Arab CITIZENS of Israel? Have you ever taken a look at Israeli demographics? The Basic Law?

"Voting, freedom of movement, etc." Do you even understand the nature of Gaza and the so called "West Bank?" They are not parts of Israel but technically foreign territories captured during war. Do us both a favor, especially yourrself, study the issues before coming off with hideously obnoxious commentaries...

 

[rachamim18]

Nino: "Israel never ignores UN Resolutions." General Assembly resolutions mean nothing. They are non-binding opinions. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and Israel of course is entitled to ignore which ever opinions it wants.

"The USA never flouts International Law either." International Law has nothing at all to do with General Assembly resolutions. For that matter, either do Security Council resolutions although the latter may be utilised to enforce law.

"Most of what is said about Lieberman on the web is true." Really? You mean you have actually read all the thousands of Google [and other engine] hits on him? Of course not. You are simply talking just to talk. Fact of the matter is, if this past two weeks worth of tabloid reporting [repeated via the web] is any kind of benchmark then no, the opposite is true.

You imply he is the reincarnation of Rav Kahane. Nothing could be further from the truth. The man is extremely right wing but that is a long way from racist .

"The techniques used by Israel is not the same as those used by Nazi Germany, but they are just as brutl." Please qualify that Nino.

Moono: "Rachamim is a mercenary." No, I am in the IDF.

"Rachamim just follows orders." Yes, as long as they do not contravene the signed Cinventions, as per IDF guidelines.

Weltweit: Soldiers working has nothing at all to do with following illegal orders. Why would you associate it with such nonsense? A good soldier is one whom uses his or her common sense as well as knowledge of tradecraft. All industrialised nations make sure that their recruits are well acquainted with signed Conventions. Only people like Moono and Nino who are very unfamiliar with military life would even faintly suggest what they have insinuated.

"The excuse given in Nuremburg." Again with the Nazi stuff. Please, it is not about me, it is about a very valid subject. Study it, master it, but get off my back.

 

[moono]

but get off my back.

When you get off the backs of Palestinians, IOF boy.

5 Palestinians, including two civilians, killed by IDF

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/791260.html

 

[rachamim18]

Weltweit: "Israel is brutal in its treatment of 'Palestinians'." Have you ever seen a baby's cranium blown off its head? Have you ever been spit at? Shat on? Had rocks shot at you at well over 100 mph? Still Israel conforms to International morms within reason. Yes, there abberrations and yes, mistakes have and are made . However, Israel is just a nation, not an angelic being. When holding it up to the light, be sure to do the same to all others in the very same context.

When this stance is posed people of other persuasions inevitably stick to well, the "Palestinians" do not have a formal govt. so they cannot be expected to conform to humanitarian stances. International Law says that the existence of armed militias not sanctioned by a national entity are illegal. In PA controlled lands there well over 26 ssuch groups at last count, in addition to the 17 different factions of the PA Security apparrattus. These all exist in some of the most densely populated spots on Earth.

Israel does exceedingly well at policing both them and itself. When mistakes are made, and they certainly ARE made, Israel does what it can to bring things up to speed. I wonder, how many PA Policemen has the PA detained for crimes against Israelis or Israel? Israel has detained more than 40 of its Border Police and municipal police for crimes against "Palestinians." There are well over 400 common citizens in Israeli prisons for crimes against Arabs involving race. how many Arabs in PA jails for crimes against Jewish Israelis?

"Human Rights groups regularly talk about the disparity in death counts between Israel and the "Palestinians" [so this must prove that Israel is brutal]." So what? What does a difference of UNPROVED numbers mean? In those numbers there are no autopsies, no forensics, no investigations of any kind, just the "word" of a "Palestinians" doctor, ambulance driver, or plai old citizen...none of whom have the ability to spot bullets flying out of a sniper's rifle a half a mile away.

As I always say, nothing is black and white.


Nino: "IDF takes its cues from the US' ROE." You have it backwards Nino. In Iraq, America has studied our methods to a tee. They even have used our training techniques. They learned mouseholing from us. They were used to knock down drag em' out firefights which is something we train never to be involved in if we can help it. Our Infantry mainstay is mouseholing. We use a covering fire while the others tail it from hole to hole, until the finally reach point blank status, then shoot from the hip. America has gotten smart and instead of its Viet Nam mistake of trying to make the situation suit its scenarios, it has trained to meet the needs of a given scenario.

 

[moono]

In Iraq, America has studied our methods to a tee. They even have used our training techniques. They learned mouseholing from us. They were used to knock down drag em' out firefights which is something we train never to be involved in if we can help it. Our Infantry mainstay is mouseholing. We use a covering fire while the others tail it from hole to hole, until the finally reach point blank status, then shoot from the hip. America has gotten smart and instead of its Viet Nam mistake of trying to make the situation suit its scenarios, it has trained to meet the needs of a given scenario.

They even squeal the same with an RPG up the arse.

 

[rachamim18]

Nino: "Rachamim claimed to have been a memeber of KACH." In fact I was, when I was a teen. I am almost 40 now. Alot has changed in my life since then and I am far from that misguided little boy.

"Currently there is only one group of people suffering here, the 'Palestinians'." WHAT? The people of Ashkelon and S'derot are not suffering as Qassams rain down on them? Tell that to the family of the 40 year old man who died last night from one that landed on his head at work in a factory.

"Their homes are beiong dozed in Gaza." Only those who commit crimes. There is no punative dozing as in time past. That was given as a concession in sharm al Sheikh 2 years ago.

"They are starving in Gaza." WRONG. Humanitarian aid has never even been impeded, let alone blocked so that is a pure fallacy.

"Murderous Kadimah regime." Kadimah is a Centrist party that has been responsible in its prior form for giving Gaza to the Arabs and for giving the "West Bank" to them within the next year barring some calamity.

Keyboard: "I know Rachamim expresses dodgy views." Really? Being that I have never had the pleasure of chatting with you, what views what that be? That srael is not to be automatically demonised, and human bombs lauded as ressistance heroes? Dodgy for sure!

 

[rachamim18]

Garfield: "Does rape apply to my comment on soldiers just working." Rape is never "ok." Sadly all armies have used it, throughoutr history but if I were to ever see it happen, I would take care of it immediately.


You have obviously misunderstood. Warcrimes are never ok. Neither is an 80 page ROE.

Nino: "Israeli water and electrical plants are not being attacked." No but their babies are.

Nino has never met a Zionist who did not think "Palestinians" are scum. Nino, you surely have not met more than one or two, if any [off the web]. And for the record, I am an ardent Zionist who does not thinkl they are scum so you have met your first one [at least].

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

I'm a council assassin.

we could do wit h oyu in hackney ...

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Garfield: "Does rape apply to my comment on soldiers just working." Rape is never "ok." Sadly all armies have used it, throughoutr history but if I were to ever see it happen, I would take care of it immediately.


You have obviously misunderstood. Warcrimes are never ok. Neither is an 80 page ROE.

sorry exactly how would it be differentiated?

If an action is condoned by the higest ranking officer there at the time be it the sergent or the cournel then that action is the boys just working...

Now whilst i accept that you have a not on my watch policy and you may even be the only IDF unit to adhere totally to all the current geneva conventions and do your work admerably in a decent and honest manner, it would be remiss of you to even float the idea that all units in the IDF hold such a lofty position or to deny that they have on occasion, sometime or more than occasion been totally lax with the GC and indeed any for of humane action. indeed one might go as far as to suggest that you would be being so economical with the truth as to be a liar...

 

[moono]

we could do wit h oyu in hackney ...

 

[nino_savatte]

Of course it is. Israel has always had a policy of disproportionate response. Without such a policy the state of Israel would have been destroyed long ago.

Nothing like stating the obvious - eh, phil? Did you teach your grandmother to suck eggs too?

 

[nino_savatte]

I agree with the judgement of disporportiality but until Israeli's feel a bit more secure and the wings of some of the Ultra Orthodox parties in the Knesset are clipped then this fear of the Palestinians will get worse.


I'm a Zionist (in so far as I believe that Israel should be a homeland for the Jewish people of all denominations and none and that Israel should be run on principles of charity and justice) and I don't think that the Palestinians are scum. They've been goaded and mistreated and used and not just by Israel.

I despise nationalism of all forms. I am a socialist and an internationalist. Zionism is a form of nationalism that is based on religion and a constructed Jewish identity (originally one that put Baghadi Jews at the bottom of the social pile).

Just to add: the Lemba aren't Zionists but they are Jewish.

 

[nino_savatte]

Absolute ignorant rubbish. In reality, European anti-semites supported Zionism. Theodor Herzl was correct when he wrote that "Anti-Semites will become our surest friends, anti-Semitic countries our allies.”

Come to accuse me of spouting "ignorant rubbish" again. Quel surprise! You're a bully. Where's your proof that I'm talking rubbish, dwyer? All you have done here is to rephrase what I have already written. Is this how you write your books? You plagiarise them...or you get someone to write them for you - non?

Idiot.

 

[nino_savatte]

Nino: "Israel never ignores UN Resolutions." General Assembly resolutions mean nothing. They are non-binding opinions. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and Israel of course is entitled to ignore which ever opinions it wants.

"The USA never flouts International Law either." International Law has nothing at all to do with General Assembly resolutions. For that matter, either do Security Council resolutions although the latter may be utilised to enforce law.

"Most of what is said about Lieberman on the web is true." Really? You mean you have actually read all the thousands of Google [and other engine] hits on him? Of course not. You are simply talking just to talk. Fact of the matter is, if this past two weeks worth of tabloid reporting [repeated via the web] is any kind of benchmark then no, the opposite is true.

You imply he is the reincarnation of Rav Kahane. Nothing could be further from the truth. The man is extremely right wing but that is a long way from racist .

"The techniques used by Israel is not the same as those used by Nazi Germany, but they are just as brutl." Please qualify that Nino.

This is a piss weak defence, rach...no surprises there then.

Israel - like its sponsor the US - routinely ignores or flouts UN resolutions and international law but expects other nations to abide by them. I guess the word "hypocrisy" doesn't appear in your dictionary.

You imply he is the reincarnation of Rav Kahane

I implied nothing of the sort. However, such views have been diluted and re-presented by the current regime.

This is typical

"Most of what is said about Lieberman on the web is true." Really? You mean you have actually read all the thousands of Google [and other engine] hits on him? Of course not. You are simply talking just to talk. Fact of the matter is, if this past two weeks worth of tabloid reporting [repeated via the web] is any kind of benchmark then no, the opposite is true.

That is to say, everything that has not been written by apologists. I find it curious that one who lies and resorts to smears should have the affrontery to accuse me of "talking just to talk".

 

[phildwyer]

Where's your proof that I'm talking rubbish, dwyer?

You claimed that Zionism made European anti-semites believe that Jews were "sub-human." That is completely untrue: indeed it is the reverse of the truth. Zionist groups often worked in harmony with anti-semites throughout Europe. You don't know what you're talking about Nino. And it makes no difference whether you say it in French, Scots, American or your usual weird amalgamation of all three--its still garbage.

 

[nino_savatte]

You claimed that Zionism made European anti-semites believe that Jews were "sub-human." That is completely untrue: indeed it is the reverse of the truth. Zionist groups often worked in harmony with anti-semites throughout Europe. You don't know what you're talking about Nino. And it makes no difference whether you say it in French, Scots, American or your usual weird amalgamation of all three--its still garbage.

More nonsense. Do you have enough room in your domicile to accomodate your ego?

Phildwyer: professional liar, bully and cod academic. Still plagiarising texts - are you?

 

[nino_savatte]

Come on dwyer, you aren't doing very well here.

Still sucking Eagleton's cock?

 

[cemertyone]

You claimed that Zionism made European anti-semites believe that Jews were "sub-human." That is completely untrue: indeed it is the reverse of the truth. Zionist groups often worked in harmony with anti-semites throughout Europe. You don't know what you're talking about Nino. And it makes no difference whether you say it in French, Scots, American or your usual weird amalgamation of all three--its still garbage.

Go kill some Pal kids thats all you zionist filth are good for.....

 

[phildwyer]

Go kill some Pal kids thats all you zionist filth are good for.....

What are you on about, I am no Zionist.

 

[editor]

Come on dwyer, you aren't doing very well here.

Still sucking Eagleton's cock?

Abuse-o-meter down a notch or two, if you please squire.

(also applies to any others getting over-gobby)

 

[nino_savatte]

Abuse-o-meter down a notch or two, if you please squire.

(also applies to any others getting over-gobby)

Hmmm, so you're okay with phil's bullying? I give back what I get.

No doubt, dwyer will be allowed to continue his disruptions free from censure.

 

[moono]

A cluster bomb from the Hezbollah-Israel war in southern Lebanon exploded Friday wounding two members of an international team of land mine clearing experts, Lebanese security officials said.


The United Nations and human rights groups have accused Israel of firing as many as 4 million cluster bombs into Lebanon during its war with Hezbollah this summer that ended in a UN-brokered cease-fire on Aug. 14. UN demining experts say up to 1 million cluster bombs failed to explode and continue to threaten civilians.

At least 24 people have died in cluster bomb explosions in Lebanon since the war ended.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/792424.html

The Zionists should be invited into Lebanon to clear them up.

 

[rachamim18]

Garfield: "How would it be differentiated?" There ARE cases when one finds a lunatic in charge but that does not happen often because they are vetted quickly. In the IDF more than in other armed forces especially. See, when we finish Basic, we have a special ceremony where we officially learn our C.O.'s first name and are allowed to commiserate on a first name basis. When one is sent to their eventual destination [unit, etc] they are already going to know thie rfuture C.O.'s first name as well.


This illustrates a different system of hierarchy within our military. Also, although this was not the case when I first was inducted, new recruits today are thoroughly trained on what is expected of them in terms of ROW and ethical behavior. They are instructed, that they must, ethically and legally disobey ANY order, direct or otherwise, that will conflict with either moral or legal precedents. If no precedent does exist, they are instructed to take it to their chain of command until they find resolution. This almost ensures that atrocities will not commence on an institutional level.


Of course, as was illustrated with NCO Taysir's killing of Mr. Hundall and his susequent long prison sentence, there are bad apples. These, when shadowed by conclusive evidence, are fully prosecuted in both military and civil law.

Also, while there obviously bad apples, and they sometimes rot a unit, almost all of the IDF is highly professional and highly ethical. If they are a bad unit, word spreads and they get clipped, quickly. Remember, for example, I am in MAHAL. In peacetime, like now, we serve in the so called "West Bank." There , at every Checkpoint, camera crews and note takers, watching us 24 hours a day. If we are suited up and go out on missions, we are trailed by these people. If my platoon were to be an exception as you suggest, would not many others have been caught out there? All you get is propaganda with no facts.


Nino: First, Socialism and nationalism do NOT neccessariily cancel themselves out. Most of Israel's Labor Party were and still are, Socialists.


"Lemba are not Zionists, but they are Jews." Actually, most Lemba are seeking to come to Israel so there does that theory.


"Baghdadi Jews were at the bottom of the pile." more nonsense. There WAS and still IS a disparity between Ashkenaz, Sephard, and Mizrach demographics in terms of education, health and welfare, and income among other things but it isa not a conscious or institutional decison.

 

[moono]

Rachamim;

They are instructed, that they must, ethically and legally disobey ANY order, direct or otherwise, that will conflict with either moral or legal precedents.

Are you blind or what ? Just above your nonsense post is an account of the IOF hierarchy successfully ordering civilians shelled with cluster munitions .

 

[rachamim18]

Moono: I understand your extreme youth, as well as your total ignorance of military protocol, custom, and operations. Civilians are not the make it or break it factor in objectifying. IF at all possible, they are avoided but in the end the objectivew must be met, collateral damage or not.

 

[rachamim18]

Moono: And Hezbollah and AMAL should be invited to Israel to help pick up the more than 1000 rounds that they dropped haphazardly with no thought to civlians. It cuts both ways. At least the IDF/IAF aims.

 

[nino_savatte]

Nino: First, Socialism and nationalism do NOT neccessariily cancel themselves out. Most of Israel's Labor Party were and still are, Socialists.


"Lemba are not Zionists, but they are Jews." Actually, most Lemba are seeking to come to Israel so there does that theory.


"Baghdadi Jews were at the bottom of the pile." more nonsense. There WAS and still IS a disparity between Ashkenaz, Sephard, and Mizrach demographics in terms of education, health and welfare, and income among other things but it isa not a conscious or institutional decison.

The Israeli Labour party cannot call themselves "socialists" because they do not support internationalism. If anything they are social democrats; they support capitalism and support militarism.

I would like to see proof of your assertion that most Lemba want to move to Israel. If any of them do, they will be subjected to racial abuse.

Your last paragraph ignores historical fact for the sake of narrative. Baghdadi Jews were treated like second class citizens when the emigrated to Israel...or rather, when they were froced to move to Israel by Zionist agents and the British. Perhaps you've heard of Naim Giladi, a Baghdadi Jew and former Zionist?

 

[moono]

Rachamim;

Civilians are not the make it or break it factor in objectifying. IF at all possible, they are avoided but in the end the objectivew must be met, collateral damage or not.

Spoken like a true fascist.

That's why us civilians are trying to put you down before your 'objectives' are met. If we can't blow your serpent's heads off politically we'll find some other way.

 

[rachamim18]

Nino: LAbor only adopted a capitalist platform in 1980.

Of the Lemba, the words are their own. They express them quyite opften. They would be subjected to abuse? On what basis? WE have plenty of black skinned Jews here who suffer no such prejuidioces. The problem the Bene Yisroel found was due to their Scriptual Differences and it causing some concern about their innate Jewish ness...not their color. Please do look into it.

Naim Giladi? One of approxiomately 30 left wing nutters. So what? You forget Nino, my dad is/was Mizrachi. Any such prejudices fell away with shared military service in the 67 War. By 73 it was an anachronism.