IOF; Top brass ordered civilians cluster-bombed

[likesfish]

one thing is open warfare where you fight to win a battle against uniformed enemy .
but thats pretty rare these days its mostly ununiformed enemy so brassing up anyone and everything is not really on.
although expecting one side to abidie by the geneva conventions when the other side decides does'nt

 

[weltweit]

Arbeit macht frei.

I think that accusation is a bit extreme!

 

[moono]

Then you are prone to accept the Zionist excesses.

Rachamim;

Soldiers just work.

It's the attitude which made death camps possible.

Check out the views of a member of Rachamim's 'government', one Avigdor Lieberman.

Don't tell me I'm extreme. I am a putti by comparison and we are conversing in a thread concerning the Israeli highest echelons ordering civilians to be cluster bombed.

If you don't know which direction you are travelling, please get off the road.

 

[weltweit]

"Arbeit macht frei." is a reference to a nazi extermination camp. Are you accusing Israel of this?

 

[nino_savatte]

"Arbeit macht frei." is a reference to a nazi extermination camp. Are you accusing Israel of this?

How familiar are you with the racist rantings of Avigdor Liberman?

 

[Wolveryeti]

"Arbeit macht frei." is a reference to a nazi extermination camp. Are you accusing Israel of this?

To be fair, if they thought they could get away with it, I bet they would. So many of their other policies (e.g. in voting, freedom of movement, occupation) are methods of restraining the population of Arabs after all.

 

[nino_savatte]

Was it illegal when all those arab countries declared war on Israel, a state of war that still exists to this day with respect to some of them?

Ah, plucky little Israel (to paraphrase a line used in WWI with reference to Belgium) never does anything wrong. Israel never ignores UN resolutions nor does it ever insist that other countries obey them....does it?

Then there's your beloved USA who, like Israel, never insists that other nations obey UN resolutions..the US never flouts international law either.

 

[weltweit]

How familiar are you with the racist rantings of Avigdor Liberman?

I have never come across them.

 

[nino_savatte]

I have never come across them.

I suppose you're going to ask me to post a link. You've heard of Google - non? Google is your friend.

 

[moono]

weltweit;

"Arbeit macht frei." is a reference to a nazi extermination camp. Are you accusing Israel of this?

You're deliberately seeking the excuse to pull up the drawbridge to your ivory tower. Your question is silly in the light of what I've posted.

I'm going to get annoyed with you if you don't display some perception.

 

[weltweit]

Google may well be a tool - but I rather doubt it is my friend.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=Avigdor+Liberman&btnG=Google+Search&meta=

 

[nino_savatte]

Google may well be a tool - but I rather doubt it is my friend.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=Avigdor+Liberman&btnG=Google+Search&meta=

Pourquoi? Je ne comprends pas. Or is it the case that you don't like what you are reading?

 

[weltweit]

weltweit; You're deliberately seeking the excuse to pull up the drawbridge to your ivory tower. Your question is silly in the light of what I've posted.

I am not in any kind of tower, I just think it is 'over the top' to use the words from the Nazi's most infamous extermination camp to charachterise Israel's current behaviour towards Palestinians.

That is not to excuse them from wrong doing but they have not as a matter of fact started exterminating Palestinians en masse and using those words is just to throw an insult no more no less. I had thought better of you.

You earlier quoted laws and rules about the treatment of civilians and then failed to respond when I mentioned three little words: Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, they were civilians no?

I'm going to get annoyed with you if you don't display some perception.

I am on the side of the humans, there are humans on both sides. Conflict brings out extremists, and they are also present on both sides or do you argue the Palestinian suicide bombers only go for Israeli military targets?


oh and

Avigdor Lieberman 2 links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avigdor_Lieberman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yisrael_Beytenu
..
.

 

[weltweit]

Pourquoi? Je ne comprends pas. Or is it the case that you don't like what you are reading?

Google is a commercial entity, google works for google, treat it with care.

imho

 

[nino_savatte]

Google is a commercial entity, google works for google, treat it with care.

imho

No kidding, but if one is discerning enough one is able to sort the wheat from the chaff. That said, most of what is written about Lieberman on the web is generally true....or are you saying that you don't believe anything that is written about him or, is it the case, that you cannot, or will not, accept the fact that he's a raving racist?

 

[moono]

weltweit;

I am not in any kind of tower, I just think it is 'over the top' to use the words from the Nazi's most infamous extermination camp to charachterise Israel's current behaviour towards Palestinians.

I used it to illustrate Rachamim's stated attitude. He is a mercenary of the fascist Zionist pseudo-state and his attitude reflects the attitudes of his commanders. Rachamim 'follows orders', a common plea at Nuremberg.

 

[nino_savatte]

I am not in any kind of tower, I just think it is 'over the top' to use the words from the Nazi's most infamous extermination camp to charachterise Israel's current behaviour towards Palestinians.

That is not to excuse them from wrong doing but they have not as a matter of fact started exterminating Palestinians en masse and using those words is just to throw an insult no more no less. I had thought better of you.

So you would disapprove of the the Israeli's use of Nazi analogies too - non?

As for you second paragraph: the Israeli state has systematically butchered thousands of Palestinians in what are euphemistcally described as "police" or "defensive" measures. The techniques employed by Israel may not be as industrial as those of the Nazis but they are no less brutal.

 

[weltweit]

Oh I believe what I have just read about Lieberman .. sure why not, in fact it also does not surprise me in the least that he holds the views he holds, there is a conflict .. people are taking sides, some of them .. no most of them have no choice because of where they live .. in WW2 America interned its Japanese population .. conflict brings these people out .. such people thrive on conflict .. but do you imagine that all those on the Palestinian side are angels by comparison? I do not .. sending brainwashed children to martyr themselves while taking Jewish civilians with them is also pretty uncivilised .. desperate people do desperate things..

There are a majority I believe of civilians who are both diplomatic and peaceful in their everyday lives and these people exist on both sides of that concrete wall, in Israel in the West Bank, in Gaza, but their peacefull diplomacy in their every day lives has and will not prove sufficient to restrain the conflict which is all the evidence I need to believe that the two main parties Israel and Palestine cannot find lasting peace on their own. They could continue for another 100 years ..

Peace imho will only come from outside mediation and at the moment no one is stepping up to that plate, it seemed that Ms Rice might take an interest recently but she did not stick around.

Who then?
..
.

 

[weltweit]

weltweit; I used it to illustrate Rachamim's stated attitude. He is a mercenary of the fascist Zionist pseudo-state and his attitude reflects the attitudes of his commanders. Rachamim 'follows orders', a common plea at Nuremberg.

Yes his statement that "Soldiers simply work" is odd and NOT one that we would hope soldiers from Great Britain would agree with. We expect our soldiers to follow rules and for example to disobey and report any illegal orders that they may receive in the field.

 

[weltweit]

So you would disapprove of the the Israeli's use of Nazi analogies too - non?

tbh I have not come across them but yes I would disapprove.

As for you second paragraph: the Israeli state has systematically butchered thousands of Palestinians in what are euphemistcally described as "police" or "defensive" measures. The techniques employed by Israel may not be as industrial as those of the Nazis but they are no less brutal.

Yes Israel has been and continues to be brutal in its treatment of Palestinians and anyone else that gets in it's way. No arguments from me the human rights watch type websites always show vastly more Palestinians than Israeli casualties and dead, no argument.

I however can also understand that the Jews were targetted as a race by the Nazis and post war they wanted security as a race in Israel and continue so to do, it has been argued that the Palestinians are the latest victims of the Nazis and this I would not disagree with.
..
.

 

[nino_savatte]

Yes his statement that "Soldiers simply work" is odd and NOT one that we would hope soldiers from Great Britain would agree with. We expect our soldiers to follow rules and for example to disobey and report any illegal orders that they may receive in the field.

That's because IDF troops take their cue from the US military's handbook of engagement.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

I used it to illustrate Rachamim's stated attitude. He is a mercenary of the fascist Zionist pseudo-state and his attitude reflects the attitudes of his commanders. Rachamim 'follows orders', a common plea at Nuremberg.

More uninformed shite from the knee jerk anti Israel brigade Methinks I see a situation where Moono steps over the line into Godwins Law territory.

Maybe some history books should be on your christmas list?

 

[nino_savatte]

More uninformed shite from the knee jerk anti Israel brigade Methinks I see a situation where Moono steps over the line into Godwins Law territory.

Maybe some history books should be on your christmas list?

Ah, but rachamin expresses some extremely dodgy views here. Indeed, one could say that they resemble the views of any common or garden fascist. He also claims to have been a member of KACH. Meier Kahane wasn't known for his enlightened views on the human race.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Ah, but rachamin expresses some extremely dodgy views here. Indeed, one could say that they resemble the views of any common or garden fascist. He also claims to have been a member of KACH. Meier Kahane wasn't known for his enlightened views on the human race.

I know rachamin does express dodgy views but I'm getting a bit pissed off with the kneejerk reaction 'palastinians good, Israeli's bad' attitude.

 

[nino_savatte]

I know rachamin does express dodgy views but I'm getting a bit pissed off with the kneejerk reaction 'palastinians good, Israeli's bad' attitude.

Currently there is only one group of people suffering here: the Palestinians. Their homes are being bulldozed by the IDF and they are being starved in Gaza. I'd certainly love to take a more equivocal view but, given the IDF's unfettered access to the best American military hardware available, I'm on the side of the Palestinians and those Israelis who renounce Zionism (like the Communists, peaceniks and others). I do not and will not support the murderous Likud/kadimah/sub-KACH regime that is currently in power.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Currently there is only one group of people suffering here: the Palestinians.

What about Israeli civilians. They are suffering as well not just from the actions of terrorists and other groups but from the damage such a conflict does to Israeli civil society. A society under siege cannot grow.

Their homes are being bulldozed by the IDF and they are being starved in Gaza. I'd certainly love to take a more equivocal view but, given the IDF's unfettered access to the best American military hardware available, I'm on the side of the Palestinians and those Israelis who renounce Zionism (like the Communists, peaceniks and others). I do not and will not support the murderous Likud/kadimah/sub-KACH regime that is currently in power.

I can understand your point of view but you can be a Zionist and not want the Palestinians to be oppressed.

The Arab states are not blameless in all this. They could have integrated the Palestinians into their societies much more effectively than they did but it was more useful to them to keep the Palenstinians in shitty refugee camps as they could point to them and say 'look what the Israeli's have done' and deflecting attention from their own regime deficiencies.

The Palestinians are not the only ones who are suffering. It damages Israel to be involved in constant conflict.

I don't see why individual Palestinians can't be bought off. Surely to give each Palestinian £150k as a final settlement for the trauma of the creatioin of Eretz Israel would be a lot better deal than being used by Arab govts as conflict fodder and would be probably far more money than their land was worth in the first place. The palestinians must not be left empty handed from any settlement of the problems in the middle east.

 

[nino_savatte]

What about Israeli civilians. They are suffering as well not just from the actions of terrorists and other groups but from the damage such a conflict does to Israeli civil society. A society under siege cannot grow.


I can understand your point of view but you can be a Zionist and not want the Palestinians to be oppressed.

The Arab states are not blameless in all this. They could have integrated the Palestinians into their societies much more effectively than they did but it was more useful to them to keep the Palenstinians in shitty refugee camps as they could point to them and say 'look what the Israeli's have done' and deflecting attention from their own regime deficiencies.

The Palestinians are not the only ones who are suffering. It damages Israel to be involved in constant conflict.

I don't see why individual Palestinians can't be bought off. Surely to give each Palestinian £150k as a final settlement for the trauma of the creatioin of Eretz Israel would be a lot better deal than being used by Arab govts as conflict fodder and would be probably far more money than their land was worth in the first place. The palestinians must not be left empty handed from any settlement of the problems in the middle east.

With all due respect, Israeli homes are not being bulldozed and Israeli power plants and water treatment works are not being attacked and destroyed. The Israeli response is disproportionate to the Palestinian attacks.

I can't say that I have ever met a Zionist who didn't think the Palestinians (and others) were scum.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

With all due respect, Israeli homes are not being bulldozed and Israeli power plants and water treatment works are not being attacked and destroyed. The Israeli response is disproportionate to the Palestinian attacks.

I agree with the judgement of disporportiality but until Israeli's feel a bit more secure and the wings of some of the Ultra Orthodox parties in the Knesset are clipped then this fear of the Palestinians will get worse.

I can't say that I have ever met a Zionist who didn't think the Palestinians (and others) were scum.

I'm a Zionist (in so far as I believe that Israel should be a homeland for the Jewish people of all denominations and none and that Israel should be run on principles of charity and justice) and I don't think that the Palestinians are scum. They've been goaded and mistreated and used and not just by Israel.

 

[moono]

I know rachamin does express dodgy views but I'm getting a bit pissed off with the kneejerk reaction 'palastinians good, Israeli's bad' attitude.

Then demonstrate the 'good' aspects of the IOF instead of emphasising the 'bad' aspects of the resistance.

That should keep you busy. Good luck.


Kneejerk. Bollox.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Then demonstrate the 'good' aspects of the IOF instead of emphasising the 'bad' aspects of the resistance.

The only knee jerk I'm seeing on here is an anti israelli knee jerk. Oh and I love your 'teenage lefty' description of the IDF as the IOF - yawn. Like any armed forces its primary job is to protect the borders of Israel. I'm not saying that the Palestinians are not oppressed but in order for there to be peace the Palestinians and the Israeli's need to meet each other half way. I agree that the IDF has done bad things but that doesn't excuse the actions of some Palestinians. If you want a good thing that the IDF has done then I would say protecting the state of Israel since 1948 against overwhelmingly hostile neighbours.

That should keep you busy. Good luck.


Kneejerk. Bollox.

Bollocks yourself.