goldenecitrone
post tenebras lux
In fact, here's one of T&Ps quotes from the Russia/Georgia thread.
For Lebanon put Georgia, for Israel, Russia.
For Lebanon put Georgia, for Israel, Russia.
International reaction to Russia/Georgia conflict vs. Israel/Lebanon's
- Thread starter T & P
- Start date
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Here's a snippet from the latest 1,000+ word piece of drivel.
Is that so?
Is that so?
Nino: Glad to see you still counting my words. Just knowing you care makes me want to live forever.
TP: Proof? I guess you slept right through the attempted Hezbollah coup last spring, right? Do you know why it began? Where it began? When you answer those 2 questions you will see I am entirely correct on why Harriri Air Port was neutralised.
Golden: "For Lebanon put Georgia." Which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Lebanon was attacked because the illegal terrorist organisation Hezbollah used Lebanese territory, with government acceptance, to launch a 6 month spate of cross border missile salvos and finally corssed into Israel and murdered and kidnapped Israeli soldiers. You might wan to acquaint yourself with a little phrase called CAUSUS BELLI.
TP: Proof? I guess you slept right through the attempted Hezbollah coup last spring, right? Do you know why it began? Where it began? When you answer those 2 questions you will see I am entirely correct on why Harriri Air Port was neutralised.
Golden: "For Lebanon put Georgia." Which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Lebanon was attacked because the illegal terrorist organisation Hezbollah used Lebanese territory, with government acceptance, to launch a 6 month spate of cross border missile salvos and finally corssed into Israel and murdered and kidnapped Israeli soldiers. You might wan to acquaint yourself with a little phrase called CAUSUS BELLI.
T & P
|-o-| (-o-) |-o-|
As I said before, show us the proof. You've still haven't proven a thing.
Where is the proof that the airport is the base of a Hezbollah communications network?
Where is the proof, while you're at it, that missiles were fired from the neighbourhood that was destroyed by Israel? In earlier rants and running increasingly desperate you mentioned the launching of rockets against Israeli warships as justification. However they were not shot from the neighbourhood that was flattened by Israel.
So again, proof about those extraordinary claims about Beirut International Airport being a base for Hezbollah. And proof that the neighbourhood destroyed by Israel was a military target.
When you're ready...
Where is the proof that the airport is the base of a Hezbollah communications network?
Where is the proof, while you're at it, that missiles were fired from the neighbourhood that was destroyed by Israel? In earlier rants and running increasingly desperate you mentioned the launching of rockets against Israeli warships as justification. However they were not shot from the neighbourhood that was flattened by Israel.
So again, proof about those extraordinary claims about Beirut International Airport being a base for Hezbollah. And proof that the neighbourhood destroyed by Israel was a military target.
When you're ready...
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
It may have escaped your attention, but I don't need to physically count your words, I know what 1,000 words look like on a page and for someone who claims to hold a degree, I'm surprised that you don't. Or is it the case that US undergraduate degrees are determined by one's performance in a multiple choice exam? In which case, you've learned nothing.
hipipol
Peckham Wry
Its impossible really to reply to the Rachmads psost as they are so full or crap it would take days and I have better things to do
One point though, Israel has invaded lebanon a number of times, had their own private army (SLA, funded and armed by Israel) running what is Hizb territory now for round 15 years and the Russian have done nothing like Chabra and Shatilla - compoinded in Israels case by the population voting the vile murderous bastard who set the massacres up - Sharon - as their Prime Minister
Long Live Hadrian!!!!!!!!!!!!
One point though, Israel has invaded lebanon a number of times, had their own private army (SLA, funded and armed by Israel) running what is Hizb territory now for round 15 years and the Russian have done nothing like Chabra and Shatilla - compoinded in Israels case by the population voting the vile murderous bastard who set the massacres up - Sharon - as their Prime Minister
Long Live Hadrian!!!!!!!!!!!!
TP: "Provide proof that Hezbollah has a telecom netweork.:: Were you in prison or otherwise hospitalised over the last 9 months? If not, how could could you not know this? It was what caused the near civil war. The sovereign govt. of Lebanon (oxymoron for sure) demanded that the chief of Airport Security be scaked. Hezbollah wasted no time with an armed response since the current cvhief was their lackey. Their private AND illegal network was HQ'd at Harriri AP.
Doha ring a bell? If not, I hope you will take a good half hour and brush up because yopu are being silly at the momeent. Why do you think the Hezbollah tent city in Beirut has disappeared? Why has Hez joined the govt?
As for your question on whether or not Hezbollha fired any rockets or missiles out of Beirut which would then warrant an Israeli response. First, Israel had Causus Belli even if Hezbollah did nothing since its entire infrastructure is centered in S. Beirut. Be that as it may, the Israeli Sa'ar that was hit by a C-805, and the Cambodian flagged freighter also hit (and in its case sunk) by a second were hit with missiles fired right out of Beirut. Have you ever seen a Silkworm? You cannot even transpotrt easily by truck and for a strike like this, taken at ships within the Beirut line of sight it had to been in Beirut (aside from this conjecture we have Intel saying as much, as well aslot more).
Then examine the Hezbollah Compound I have talked about, it had store after store full of munitions and that comes under infrastructure, as would an empty studio belonging to them, as in al Manar.
The neighbourhood was a JUSTIFIABLE target, not a MILITARY target. Please strudy a bit. You are way off in many areas. Remember: ASSYMETRICAL.
Doha ring a bell? If not, I hope you will take a good half hour and brush up because yopu are being silly at the momeent. Why do you think the Hezbollah tent city in Beirut has disappeared? Why has Hez joined the govt?
As for your question on whether or not Hezbollha fired any rockets or missiles out of Beirut which would then warrant an Israeli response. First, Israel had Causus Belli even if Hezbollah did nothing since its entire infrastructure is centered in S. Beirut. Be that as it may, the Israeli Sa'ar that was hit by a C-805, and the Cambodian flagged freighter also hit (and in its case sunk) by a second were hit with missiles fired right out of Beirut. Have you ever seen a Silkworm? You cannot even transpotrt easily by truck and for a strike like this, taken at ships within the Beirut line of sight it had to been in Beirut (aside from this conjecture we have Intel saying as much, as well aslot more).
Then examine the Hezbollah Compound I have talked about, it had store after store full of munitions and that comes under infrastructure, as would an empty studio belonging to them, as in al Manar.
The neighbourhood was a JUSTIFIABLE target, not a MILITARY target. Please strudy a bit. You are way off in many areas. Remember: ASSYMETRICAL.
Hippol" Israel did not create the SLA (which by the way is long defunct). It was already in existence but DID become a stalwart ally.
Israel did not "invade," in both 78 AND 82 it weas invited and there is a big distinction there to be made.
As for "Sabra and Shatilla," it was the responsibility of the sovereign govt. of the nation that invited us. Lebanon had an army, we were not its army. The man actually responsible was Ellie Hobeika, not Sharon. Not one Israeli entered the sector.
"Russians have done nothing like...": How would you or anyone else know that? Unlike Israel, foreign press do not get to run around Russian military zones. Your conspiracy theorists do not even realise the simplicity of what you say. Israel gives free reign to foreigners to traipse about and a Russian soldier would most likely shoot you in the face. How ironic.
Israel did not "invade," in both 78 AND 82 it weas invited and there is a big distinction there to be made.
As for "Sabra and Shatilla," it was the responsibility of the sovereign govt. of the nation that invited us. Lebanon had an army, we were not its army. The man actually responsible was Ellie Hobeika, not Sharon. Not one Israeli entered the sector.
"Russians have done nothing like...": How would you or anyone else know that? Unlike Israel, foreign press do not get to run around Russian military zones. Your conspiracy theorists do not even realise the simplicity of what you say. Israel gives free reign to foreigners to traipse about and a Russian soldier would most likely shoot you in the face. How ironic.
hipipol
Peckham Wry
Invited?
What, Lebanon asked for some some of Anschluss? Do you really believe that?
A faction may have wanted more muscle to shore up their position, which was then used an excuse, but I cannot recall a united cabinet or parliament in Lebanon asking Israel to swamp half the country in tanks and troops
As for the SLA already existing, my my sounds very much the "Contras are the legitimate oppostion" crap trotted out by the Yanks tyring to justify attacks on the legitimate govt of Nicaragua.
As for the slaughter in the camps, well the whole area was controlled by the Israeli army, which under international law makes them responsible for what happened there. Even a commisiion in Israel found that to be the case
Do try not to bo so nutty Rachy, its just makes Israel looking even more rabid than it already is with you pleading the case
What, Lebanon asked for some some of Anschluss? Do you really believe that?
A faction may have wanted more muscle to shore up their position, which was then used an excuse, but I cannot recall a united cabinet or parliament in Lebanon asking Israel to swamp half the country in tanks and troops
As for the SLA already existing, my my sounds very much the "Contras are the legitimate oppostion" crap trotted out by the Yanks tyring to justify attacks on the legitimate govt of Nicaragua.
As for the slaughter in the camps, well the whole area was controlled by the Israeli army, which under international law makes them responsible for what happened there. Even a commisiion in Israel found that to be the case
Do try not to bo so nutty Rachy, its just makes Israel looking even more rabid than it already is with you pleading the case
camouflage
gaslit at scale.
Yeah it's true, except for those journalists shot by Isreali soldiers, the Russian military is much more like the Americans in that respect.
Hipipol: When talking of a "nation wanting soemthing," all that matters iw hat the SOVEREIGN and LEGAL Government wants and/or asks. Faction? Certainly the Phalangists WERE a faction but at the same time they held the reigns of govt and that IS the deciding factor.
In 82 for example, the country had almost 60 factions PLUS Syria which to this day refuses to recognise Lebanon's mere existence. Syrian elemenets were using gunships to pound the French Room (ruined French Crusader castle in Maronite stronghold in the Chouf) and the Christians were about to be eterminated. That is why we entered although we naturally had the simeltaneous objetice of pushing the PLO back north of the Alawi, the same prime we had in the 2006 War , replacing PLO with Hezbbollah.
In 78 we were also invited although in my estimatiom we should have stayed put but we were in bad need of a strong tactical advantage and a peace with an Arab Nation was just too tempting for brass.
If you cannot "remember" a cabinet asking, you might be too young. Research Lebanon circa 1981 and 1982.
After 78 the Aramy dissolved along ethnic lines, the Christians mantained the trappings of the legal armed forces supplanted with various Christian Militias, Force75,Tigers, al Marada, Guardians,Z'ghartan, the Order, al Tanzim (not to be confused with the PLO's Tanzim), LFEC, and several others and this hodge podge, all separately led, served as the sovereign military force of the sitting govt.
AFTER we were in divisions began appearing and various Chrisitian militias merged, factionalised, or otherwise made alliances with each and every player in the region.
We were already mired deep, came legally, and to leave would have been legally remiss not to mention leaving our northern border and all of Galilee highly vulnerable. We tried our best to contain it but you cannot shove it down peoples' throats.
"SLA already eixsting.": Do you even know how they were formed? A Christian Maromite in the sovereign Army broke off a fifedom for himself in S. LEbanon. Very manipulative, he looked for the strongest sponsor and he chose us. Would we refuse it? Who would? It means having a proxy to deal with the melon bombs and burqa covered C4 we were facing every single day. At the point where they allied with us they were already 60% Shia so we did not see it as further factionalising anything or anyone, but playing by local rules. In the end we had to rescuse them but that is neither here nor there.
"Since Israel controlled the land around Sabras and Shatilla, it was responsible for the slaughter under International Law.": WRONG. Wrong on ALL counts. We did not control anything. We were at that very moment ensconced in the Kuwaiti building opposite the bank that stood on the corner of the main road entering the camp. Our building, a single building was all of 4 stories tall. Sabra and Shatilla was only one camp and a neighbourhood in urban Beirut. No walls, no fences, not even a sign demarcating it an anything other than downtrodden inner city Beirut.
The night before the operation Hobeika and his left hand men came for a meeting in the Kuwaiti building and TOLD US they were going in to mop of residual elements of the PLO who had absconded from the PLO pullou to Tunis.
Since Hobeika, et asl were the legal representatives of the legal govt. of the nation to whom were were a GUEST, we could do nothing even if we wanted to. It was said however, that Hobeika better pull his weight because we were not in the modd for games (games like double dealing that had been going down in Chouf doe months).
"Oh noooooo, all on up and up" as he said. they enter by the hospital, the very narrow alleys and such kept visibility to single digits. In a couple of hours we were to deploy flares , which the IDF did, from the permiter and which is by the book night ops doctrine. Then the sortm kicked off. Hobeika, et al were livid because of a PLO massacarre of an entire Phalangist village not long before , as well as Gemayel's assasination and so they took it out on whoever was handy.
We could do nothing and did not even know the scope of things for a full 36 hours. That is why no Israeli was even brought up for indictmen, let alone charged. hobeika made deals that kps his as clear and free but if you want to point fingers., he is the man. He and the Lebanese Phalangists (who by the way still very much exist).
In 82 for example, the country had almost 60 factions PLUS Syria which to this day refuses to recognise Lebanon's mere existence. Syrian elemenets were using gunships to pound the French Room (ruined French Crusader castle in Maronite stronghold in the Chouf) and the Christians were about to be eterminated. That is why we entered although we naturally had the simeltaneous objetice of pushing the PLO back north of the Alawi, the same prime we had in the 2006 War , replacing PLO with Hezbbollah.
In 78 we were also invited although in my estimatiom we should have stayed put but we were in bad need of a strong tactical advantage and a peace with an Arab Nation was just too tempting for brass.
If you cannot "remember" a cabinet asking, you might be too young. Research Lebanon circa 1981 and 1982.
After 78 the Aramy dissolved along ethnic lines, the Christians mantained the trappings of the legal armed forces supplanted with various Christian Militias, Force75,Tigers, al Marada, Guardians,Z'ghartan, the Order, al Tanzim (not to be confused with the PLO's Tanzim), LFEC, and several others and this hodge podge, all separately led, served as the sovereign military force of the sitting govt.
AFTER we were in divisions began appearing and various Chrisitian militias merged, factionalised, or otherwise made alliances with each and every player in the region.
We were already mired deep, came legally, and to leave would have been legally remiss not to mention leaving our northern border and all of Galilee highly vulnerable. We tried our best to contain it but you cannot shove it down peoples' throats.
"SLA already eixsting.": Do you even know how they were formed? A Christian Maromite in the sovereign Army broke off a fifedom for himself in S. LEbanon. Very manipulative, he looked for the strongest sponsor and he chose us. Would we refuse it? Who would? It means having a proxy to deal with the melon bombs and burqa covered C4 we were facing every single day. At the point where they allied with us they were already 60% Shia so we did not see it as further factionalising anything or anyone, but playing by local rules. In the end we had to rescuse them but that is neither here nor there.
"Since Israel controlled the land around Sabras and Shatilla, it was responsible for the slaughter under International Law.": WRONG. Wrong on ALL counts. We did not control anything. We were at that very moment ensconced in the Kuwaiti building opposite the bank that stood on the corner of the main road entering the camp. Our building, a single building was all of 4 stories tall. Sabra and Shatilla was only one camp and a neighbourhood in urban Beirut. No walls, no fences, not even a sign demarcating it an anything other than downtrodden inner city Beirut.
The night before the operation Hobeika and his left hand men came for a meeting in the Kuwaiti building and TOLD US they were going in to mop of residual elements of the PLO who had absconded from the PLO pullou to Tunis.
Since Hobeika, et asl were the legal representatives of the legal govt. of the nation to whom were were a GUEST, we could do nothing even if we wanted to. It was said however, that Hobeika better pull his weight because we were not in the modd for games (games like double dealing that had been going down in Chouf doe months).
"Oh noooooo, all on up and up" as he said. they enter by the hospital, the very narrow alleys and such kept visibility to single digits. In a couple of hours we were to deploy flares , which the IDF did, from the permiter and which is by the book night ops doctrine. Then the sortm kicked off. Hobeika, et al were livid because of a PLO massacarre of an entire Phalangist village not long before , as well as Gemayel's assasination and so they took it out on whoever was handy.
We could do nothing and did not even know the scope of things for a full 36 hours. That is why no Israeli was even brought up for indictmen, let alone charged. hobeika made deals that kps his as clear and free but if you want to point fingers., he is the man. He and the Lebanese Phalangists (who by the way still very much exist).
Israel has shot how many journalists? the IDF is the most operational Armed Force in the entire world, bar none. America in Iraq? We have been doing it for decades but at a higher rate of speed. Certainly non-combatants get caught in flux but that is the nature of their work. IF you choose to enter a war zone you best realise bullets cannot tell friend or foe, or even supposed "neutral."
Americans have killed more than their share of non-combatants, as have Brits. Look at the records. Take the operational man hours, divide the casulaties., and then give us your opinion. Sound bites sound real cool, especially lacking any substance. The real thing you should be considering is that WERE Israel actually so nefarious, no journalists would get anywhere near us OR if any did they would ALL be dead. That is not the case, is it?
Hip: Forgot to tell you: "Commiittee in Israel found it to be the case.": It was called the "Kahane Commission" and after any national event we always have one. It means nothing. Sharon was not even fired so so much for THAT idea (he WAS forced to resign after a supporter threw a grenade into apeace march in T. Aviv but that had nothing to do with him and his resignation was entirely voluntarily).
Opinions mean nothing, Rule of Law does. Where is the indictment?
Americans have killed more than their share of non-combatants, as have Brits. Look at the records. Take the operational man hours, divide the casulaties., and then give us your opinion. Sound bites sound real cool, especially lacking any substance. The real thing you should be considering is that WERE Israel actually so nefarious, no journalists would get anywhere near us OR if any did they would ALL be dead. That is not the case, is it?
Hip: Forgot to tell you: "Commiittee in Israel found it to be the case.": It was called the "Kahane Commission" and after any national event we always have one. It means nothing. Sharon was not even fired so so much for THAT idea (he WAS forced to resign after a supporter threw a grenade into apeace march in T. Aviv but that had nothing to do with him and his resignation was entirely voluntarily).
Opinions mean nothing, Rule of Law does. Where is the indictment?
camouflage
gaslit at scale.
Here we go, another rachamvalanche.
You have to be really dedicated or borded to take the time to answer this sort of post. This is Isreals version of Human Wave, the rachmam-Megapost.
hipipol
Peckham Wry
Rachmann you love your country and see that it does as justifiable
As such you are able to look at the deths of tens of thousands of non Israelis as simply a topic for debate, not as real humans
This view seems to be shared by the majority of your countrymen
The result is demonstarted by nit picking defence of the indefensable
Israel is a militarised state which seeks to dominate is neighbours by force
The SLA was armed and funded by Isreal
The Phalange also
You are therefore responsible for the actions of your proxies
If I give a madman a gun and he uses it to kill people, I am culpable
Israel is culpable
As such you are able to look at the deths of tens of thousands of non Israelis as simply a topic for debate, not as real humans
This view seems to be shared by the majority of your countrymen
The result is demonstarted by nit picking defence of the indefensable
Israel is a militarised state which seeks to dominate is neighbours by force
The SLA was armed and funded by Isreal
The Phalange also
You are therefore responsible for the actions of your proxies
If I give a madman a gun and he uses it to kill people, I am culpable
Israel is culpable
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
I'm trying hard to control my laughter here. Are you serious?
Ariel Sharon gave the Phalange (who were funded by the Israelis state) a nod and a wink to massacre loads of innocent people. The IDF stood idly by while the slaughter took place.
Foreigner: How indicative of this board and how sad indeed when instead of offering a sensible rebuttal grounded in facts you attempt to attack me, a man you have never even met. Sure, you have convinced me (not).
Hipipol: I am actually a vocal critic of my nation. Yes I love it, and I am loayal and that should (and does) mean that I want it to better itself. However, when a nation is a mere 60 years old and has done as well as mine has , given its geopolitical dynamic (surrounded by almost 1 billion stated enemies, many of whom aim for genocide on top of destroying my homeland...not to mention so called civilised nations like the UK proposing such ridiculous iniatives as Artisitc and Academic Boycotts), I find we have more to be proud of than ashamed.
IF a person or entity offers CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM, I am all for it. If one peruses the Mid-East Forum they will find where I do criticise my nation. When people ignorantly and blindly denigrate it, naturally I take note and do my best to dispel these non-sensibilities. too much it is me as a person who is attacked though, and the real issues remain ignored.
"Rachamim is able to look at the deaths of 10s of thousands non-Israelis not as humans but as topics of debate...": WHAT? What would make you EVER imagine that? Like most every Israeli Jewish male I am also a lifelong soldier. I happened to be an officer in the Infantry/Paracorps. and as one my age (41) have seen death live and upclose many more times than I care to talk about. As such I find life to be infintismally precious. I do not belittle ANY death, not the death of a foreign journalist OR the death of a so called "Suicide Bomber."
"This view seems to be shared by the majority of Rachamim's countrymen.": Really? Tell us, how many "Palestinian" organisations calling for the better treatment of Jews exist? Of Israelis? How many "Palestinian" organisations calling for better monitoring of Jeiwish or Israeli civil and human rights eixst?ONLY ISRAELIS march for Arabs. We are a people who take the well being of others, even those aiming for our genocide to the point of neuroses.
When Arabs have Peaceniks we can have a much different outlook, and yet we DO have Peaceniks and we DO have liberals of every size and striupe fighting for equality between both Peoples. Thing is, it takes two to make peace, just as it takes two to make war. The Arabs have the war thing down pat, when they even try for the peace thing you MIGHT have a point.
"Israel is a militarised state...": I think any state surrounded by literaly dozens of nations existing in a state of declared war would also tend to be militarised. To be otherwise would be asinine. Noone wants a second Holocaust. Read the HAMAS Charter for starters and then begin on the other literally 26 "Palestinian" militant groups , 25 of which aim for the total and utter destruction of Israel, and 21 of them aiming also for total genocide of Israel's People which by the way includes much more than just Jews.
Israel is militarised by neccessity. It is also a Liberal Democracy that offers its minorities the best standard of living economically and politically of ANY nation in the entire Mid-East, in all of West Asia if you want to nitpick. Israel's 20% Arab minority CHOOSES to call it home, free to leave at anytime they OPT to be Israeli. Says alot I think when 7 nearby nations do not even allow a Jew to transit its airports!
"The SLA was armed and funded by Israel.": Not initially but yes, for most of its existence, absolutely. Why not? Lebanon existed and continues to exist in a state of declared war with Israel and shares a border with us. The SLA, an army primarily comprised of Shia Muslims was a firm ally who sought peace with us. Tactical Alliances are all too fleeting but the SLA NEVER did wrong by Israel and when the SLA's day had passed we repaid their favour in kind by offering refuge to each and ever member and extended family who applied.
I fail to see your point though. Why is it wrong for Israel to have held a tactical alliance with 1 of almost 50 different military orgnisations on just that border? We would have been semi-retarded not to.
"The (Lebanese) Phalange was also armed and funded by Israel.": There you are way off point. We only got involved with the Phalange at all in the early 1970s and since it was, for a very short interval the sovereign govt. of that country, why not? Again, tactical alliances are valuable, all the more so when each nations ahres a border as we did with them. I will again remind you that the Phalange represented just 1 of nearly 50 armed forces in that nation at that time (from 77 until 86).
"You are responsible for the action of your proxies.": First off, the SLA committed no real atrocities, certainly they were one of the milder armed contingents in that nation and I can say that right off the bat. As for the Phalangists, they were the sovereign govt. of the nation and how in the world would you ever imagine that a foreign enity like Israel could ever hold responsibility for anything the sovereign govt of another nation did or did not do?
EVEN IF Israel had wanted them to do soemthing it would have been impossible. I suggest you take a peek into Eli Hobeika who was the factiona leader actually responsible for Sabra and Shatilla. Read the papers of his commanders. Also then, in their mitigating defence, take a gander at the action of the PLO remnants and allies in the weeks preceeding that atrocity. Quid pro quo and nothing having to do with us.
Our COs were ensconced in the Kuwaiti Building catacorner to the main entrance to those 2 neighbourhoods (only 1 was a Camp and had long ago evolved into just another neighbourhood in the inner city), by the main hospital. From the IDF FOB you could not see anything more than rising smoke and only hear gunshots which sad to say was the colour of the day in mid-80s Beirut.
The only thing that can honestly be said about the IDF in that entire affair is 2 things, neither bad: I) We were ordered by our COs (I was not there for that happening, I was initially deployed in Beka'a) to shoot off illumination rounds when sunlight waned, but that was normal operating protocol when an ally, as the Lebanese Govt. was at the time, and II) Our brass called Hobeika et al onto the carpet when runours began making their way back to the other side of the road. The Lebanese denied all accusations and since we were not allowed into the Sector there was nothing that could be done.
"IF you give a gun to a madman you are culpable.": Hate to break this to you but the entire nation of Lebanon was madman then, and our direct neighbour so it was either TRY to build worthwhile alliances or to risk a much worse scenario playing out when whichever side that triumphs is our confirmed "to the death" enemy.
Hipipol: I am actually a vocal critic of my nation. Yes I love it, and I am loayal and that should (and does) mean that I want it to better itself. However, when a nation is a mere 60 years old and has done as well as mine has , given its geopolitical dynamic (surrounded by almost 1 billion stated enemies, many of whom aim for genocide on top of destroying my homeland...not to mention so called civilised nations like the UK proposing such ridiculous iniatives as Artisitc and Academic Boycotts), I find we have more to be proud of than ashamed.
IF a person or entity offers CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM, I am all for it. If one peruses the Mid-East Forum they will find where I do criticise my nation. When people ignorantly and blindly denigrate it, naturally I take note and do my best to dispel these non-sensibilities. too much it is me as a person who is attacked though, and the real issues remain ignored.
"Rachamim is able to look at the deaths of 10s of thousands non-Israelis not as humans but as topics of debate...": WHAT? What would make you EVER imagine that? Like most every Israeli Jewish male I am also a lifelong soldier. I happened to be an officer in the Infantry/Paracorps. and as one my age (41) have seen death live and upclose many more times than I care to talk about. As such I find life to be infintismally precious. I do not belittle ANY death, not the death of a foreign journalist OR the death of a so called "Suicide Bomber."
"This view seems to be shared by the majority of Rachamim's countrymen.": Really? Tell us, how many "Palestinian" organisations calling for the better treatment of Jews exist? Of Israelis? How many "Palestinian" organisations calling for better monitoring of Jeiwish or Israeli civil and human rights eixst?ONLY ISRAELIS march for Arabs. We are a people who take the well being of others, even those aiming for our genocide to the point of neuroses.
When Arabs have Peaceniks we can have a much different outlook, and yet we DO have Peaceniks and we DO have liberals of every size and striupe fighting for equality between both Peoples. Thing is, it takes two to make peace, just as it takes two to make war. The Arabs have the war thing down pat, when they even try for the peace thing you MIGHT have a point.
"Israel is a militarised state...": I think any state surrounded by literaly dozens of nations existing in a state of declared war would also tend to be militarised. To be otherwise would be asinine. Noone wants a second Holocaust. Read the HAMAS Charter for starters and then begin on the other literally 26 "Palestinian" militant groups , 25 of which aim for the total and utter destruction of Israel, and 21 of them aiming also for total genocide of Israel's People which by the way includes much more than just Jews.
Israel is militarised by neccessity. It is also a Liberal Democracy that offers its minorities the best standard of living economically and politically of ANY nation in the entire Mid-East, in all of West Asia if you want to nitpick. Israel's 20% Arab minority CHOOSES to call it home, free to leave at anytime they OPT to be Israeli. Says alot I think when 7 nearby nations do not even allow a Jew to transit its airports!
"The SLA was armed and funded by Israel.": Not initially but yes, for most of its existence, absolutely. Why not? Lebanon existed and continues to exist in a state of declared war with Israel and shares a border with us. The SLA, an army primarily comprised of Shia Muslims was a firm ally who sought peace with us. Tactical Alliances are all too fleeting but the SLA NEVER did wrong by Israel and when the SLA's day had passed we repaid their favour in kind by offering refuge to each and ever member and extended family who applied.
I fail to see your point though. Why is it wrong for Israel to have held a tactical alliance with 1 of almost 50 different military orgnisations on just that border? We would have been semi-retarded not to.
"The (Lebanese) Phalange was also armed and funded by Israel.": There you are way off point. We only got involved with the Phalange at all in the early 1970s and since it was, for a very short interval the sovereign govt. of that country, why not? Again, tactical alliances are valuable, all the more so when each nations ahres a border as we did with them. I will again remind you that the Phalange represented just 1 of nearly 50 armed forces in that nation at that time (from 77 until 86).
"You are responsible for the action of your proxies.": First off, the SLA committed no real atrocities, certainly they were one of the milder armed contingents in that nation and I can say that right off the bat. As for the Phalangists, they were the sovereign govt. of the nation and how in the world would you ever imagine that a foreign enity like Israel could ever hold responsibility for anything the sovereign govt of another nation did or did not do?
EVEN IF Israel had wanted them to do soemthing it would have been impossible. I suggest you take a peek into Eli Hobeika who was the factiona leader actually responsible for Sabra and Shatilla. Read the papers of his commanders. Also then, in their mitigating defence, take a gander at the action of the PLO remnants and allies in the weeks preceeding that atrocity. Quid pro quo and nothing having to do with us.
Our COs were ensconced in the Kuwaiti Building catacorner to the main entrance to those 2 neighbourhoods (only 1 was a Camp and had long ago evolved into just another neighbourhood in the inner city), by the main hospital. From the IDF FOB you could not see anything more than rising smoke and only hear gunshots which sad to say was the colour of the day in mid-80s Beirut.
The only thing that can honestly be said about the IDF in that entire affair is 2 things, neither bad: I) We were ordered by our COs (I was not there for that happening, I was initially deployed in Beka'a) to shoot off illumination rounds when sunlight waned, but that was normal operating protocol when an ally, as the Lebanese Govt. was at the time, and II) Our brass called Hobeika et al onto the carpet when runours began making their way back to the other side of the road. The Lebanese denied all accusations and since we were not allowed into the Sector there was nothing that could be done.
"IF you give a gun to a madman you are culpable.": Hate to break this to you but the entire nation of Lebanon was madman then, and our direct neighbour so it was either TRY to build worthwhile alliances or to risk a much worse scenario playing out when whichever side that triumphs is our confirmed "to the death" enemy.
Nino: I am glad you are at least trying to stifle your laughter...that is a huge improvement for you, is it not? How do you know that Sharon or anyone else with an IDF beret winked at anyone? I imagine you were not even born then. As someone who actually spent 6 years up there I can tell you it was hell on Earth and it was on our doorstep. We better have tried to do soemthing rather than wait for that horrednous anrchy to wend itself southward and infect our entire nation. Druse kill "Palestinian" kill Maronite" kill other Maronite who kills Armenian who kills Sunna Secular who in turn kills Sunna Religious and so on. Almost 50 well armed and well manned armies all duking it out daily. Alliances literally changed daily in many cases and it was an incredibly dedly time. I remember when they began using melons as IEDs. Nothing was as it seemed and the best anyone could have hoped for was a correct throw of the dice.
Were we wrong to have cast our lot with the Phalangists? They courted us long and hard and promised us the world. Poor Begin was taken in as most would be. He saw the Maronites as fighting a common enemy with Israel, the Arabs (most Maronites, the vast majority do not see or feel themself to be Arab). In the end they used us as all Arabs (so much for the "non-Arab" shtick) have used us, our truest allies turning out to be, against all odds, the SLA.
Of all groups up north I would wager that the SLA performed the least illegal acts (next to us) and not because they were our allies, not because of any undue influence on our part, but because their leader, their actual leader, General Lahoud (the founding officer was Major Haddad but he was off the Big Chair by 82, already fighting his terminal cancer that would kill him in 84) was much more interested in sheer power and control than in any ideological struggle. He recognised the artificiality of Lebanon and how foolish it would be to set any ideological stake in the outcome. Cote D'Azure was much more sensible to him and to his credit he was absolutely correct.
The stupidest among the SLA believed the lies of the Islamo-Fascists like AMAL and Hezbollah and when most came south for refuge in our nation, they instead took their families and entered what were supposed to be "Re-Education Camps." I do not know of a single one who emerged alive, or any of their close family members for that matter.
Any way, you can forget placing the blame of Shatilla and Sabra on Israel or Israelis. If I give you a gun for your birthday and the next day you walk into a post office and go "ballistic" as the Americans like to say, is it my fault? I DO believe in "ultimate culpability" as far as military matters but that is where I draw the line. Israeli COs ARE culpabale for Israeli actions, not Phalangists under their own leadership qhich operates under its own govt!
Were we wrong to have cast our lot with the Phalangists? They courted us long and hard and promised us the world. Poor Begin was taken in as most would be. He saw the Maronites as fighting a common enemy with Israel, the Arabs (most Maronites, the vast majority do not see or feel themself to be Arab). In the end they used us as all Arabs (so much for the "non-Arab" shtick) have used us, our truest allies turning out to be, against all odds, the SLA.
Of all groups up north I would wager that the SLA performed the least illegal acts (next to us) and not because they were our allies, not because of any undue influence on our part, but because their leader, their actual leader, General Lahoud (the founding officer was Major Haddad but he was off the Big Chair by 82, already fighting his terminal cancer that would kill him in 84) was much more interested in sheer power and control than in any ideological struggle. He recognised the artificiality of Lebanon and how foolish it would be to set any ideological stake in the outcome. Cote D'Azure was much more sensible to him and to his credit he was absolutely correct.
The stupidest among the SLA believed the lies of the Islamo-Fascists like AMAL and Hezbollah and when most came south for refuge in our nation, they instead took their families and entered what were supposed to be "Re-Education Camps." I do not know of a single one who emerged alive, or any of their close family members for that matter.
Any way, you can forget placing the blame of Shatilla and Sabra on Israel or Israelis. If I give you a gun for your birthday and the next day you walk into a post office and go "ballistic" as the Americans like to say, is it my fault? I DO believe in "ultimate culpability" as far as military matters but that is where I draw the line. Israeli COs ARE culpabale for Israeli actions, not Phalangists under their own leadership qhich operates under its own govt!
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
I don't give a monkeys for your excuses, your tropes or your euphemisms. Once again you produce a glut of words to cover for the fact that you haven't got much of an explanation for what happened or to divert attention away from the reality. Whatever the case, I've become accustomed to it; it fails to convince.
I suppose you could say that the massacres didn't happen or weren't even massacres at all but that would be Orwellian in the extreme.
The simple fact remains that the IDF stood by while the slaughter took place.
I suppose you could say that the massacres didn't happen or weren't even massacres at all but that would be Orwellian in the extreme.
The simple fact remains that the IDF stood by while the slaughter took place.
Nino: I do not know what the word "trope" means.Maybe you will be your usual dear of a person and explain it for uncle Rachi, yes?
Now as for the jist of your rant...Excuses? Who needs them? The events are all so well documented as to make it all a monotonous and never ending replay of the same old song and dance. I only ever bother talking about it when folks like you claim to know the real deal and are not even in the same book let alone on the same page.
I would say the massacarres did not happen? Why would you EVER imagine that dear soul? Of course they happened. They happened, they were criminal, and they were the direct work of the Hobeika Faction of the Phlangist Militia under the G'mayel Govt. they were not under Israeli Forces, not under Israeli governance, and not even under an Israeli occupation as so many hyperbolists and propagandsits tend to pretend.
Since bringing Hobeika to account was never going to happen, of cours they wrung their hands and grabbed the closest available body, Sharon. thanks to G-D that he had enough backbone and character to carry that enormous onus. the PM knew him to be inncoent and shame on our Opposition who as always, no matter WHO is in opposition and that is the biggest shame of our political system, soought attention and even capitulation is able by pointing their fat grubby fingers at the IDF.
Sharon wrote no policy. He made no laws. He led men who were ordered by their govt to gain Objectives. In this case, as almost alwys, the IDF performed Job One in record time and without a hitch. If Lebanon has a problem with its own quasi-official forces who commit atrocitie son Lebanese soil against Lebanese Legal Residents (not citizenns because far be it from the Lebanese Govt to ever willingly award Lebanese citizenship to a single "Palestinian", even a 6th generation one)....Let Lebanon OR the ICJ deal with it but leave our name out of the nonsense.I think we have paid more than our time as scapegoats of the world.
"IDF stood by as slaughter took place.": Another question. If you are in the British Forces, ivisiting in Pakistan at a technical conference, or even helping to pilice a world forum....and an Islamic militia enters an area of Peshawar and begans opening up rooms with AKs, killing women and children, do you take it upon yourself to break International and Pakistani Laws, without being ordered to do so, and try to stop the gunman?
Guests in another country, even when warmly received are not allowed to take it upon themselves to play world policeman. Most nations have it ingrained in their Constitutions.
Now as for the jist of your rant...Excuses? Who needs them? The events are all so well documented as to make it all a monotonous and never ending replay of the same old song and dance. I only ever bother talking about it when folks like you claim to know the real deal and are not even in the same book let alone on the same page.
I would say the massacarres did not happen? Why would you EVER imagine that dear soul? Of course they happened. They happened, they were criminal, and they were the direct work of the Hobeika Faction of the Phlangist Militia under the G'mayel Govt. they were not under Israeli Forces, not under Israeli governance, and not even under an Israeli occupation as so many hyperbolists and propagandsits tend to pretend.
Since bringing Hobeika to account was never going to happen, of cours they wrung their hands and grabbed the closest available body, Sharon. thanks to G-D that he had enough backbone and character to carry that enormous onus. the PM knew him to be inncoent and shame on our Opposition who as always, no matter WHO is in opposition and that is the biggest shame of our political system, soought attention and even capitulation is able by pointing their fat grubby fingers at the IDF.
Sharon wrote no policy. He made no laws. He led men who were ordered by their govt to gain Objectives. In this case, as almost alwys, the IDF performed Job One in record time and without a hitch. If Lebanon has a problem with its own quasi-official forces who commit atrocitie son Lebanese soil against Lebanese Legal Residents (not citizenns because far be it from the Lebanese Govt to ever willingly award Lebanese citizenship to a single "Palestinian", even a 6th generation one)....Let Lebanon OR the ICJ deal with it but leave our name out of the nonsense.I think we have paid more than our time as scapegoats of the world.
"IDF stood by as slaughter took place.": Another question. If you are in the British Forces, ivisiting in Pakistan at a technical conference, or even helping to pilice a world forum....and an Islamic militia enters an area of Peshawar and begans opening up rooms with AKs, killing women and children, do you take it upon yourself to break International and Pakistani Laws, without being ordered to do so, and try to stop the gunman?
Guests in another country, even when warmly received are not allowed to take it upon themselves to play world policeman. Most nations have it ingrained in their Constitutions.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Again, you are covering for the lack of honesty with a surfeit of words. End it now.
What? No character count? You are getting lax Nino! Of course snappy one liners will always suffice instead of actual debate though, right? Got it, thanks for the heads up!
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