Interdepartmental politics

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

The dept I work for is a nice, friendly place, overseen by a kindly yet professional boss, who manages by consensus, has never been known to raise his voice and considers all angles before making a decision, keeping the priorities of the organisation at the forefront.

The dept I work with is an evil place full of macheavellian schemers, who do nothing unless in their own interests, pass off any fuck ups as other peoples fault, but seize credit for anything that goes well, appropriate budgets left, right and centre. Constantly re-schedule important meetings, yet insist on daily meetings in which nothing important is ever discussed as "this is not the arena" and have a series of stock responses of why things dont get done

• a lack of planning on the part of Dept Nice does not constitute an emergency on the part of Dept Nasty
• no work can be done on this {tiny trivial request} unless you have a relevant business case, a full project plan, comprehensive budget forecasts and requirements spec which have all been signed of by the head of Dept Evil
• Prince 2 management methodology/SCRUM management methodology/other management methodology that they just made up on the spot doesn't support this deviation from the objectives

The only common management of my dept and Dept Evil is the Chief Exec.

I have complained until I am blue in the face to my boss, who listens concernedly and has words with the head of evil nasty dept, when they promise never to be evil and nasty again. My boss constantly praises my dilligence, my patience and how important it is to be nice to evil nasty dept. But things are going seriously, seriously wrong. Everyone in the dept can see it, incl. the boss who insists on being nice rather than kicking seven kinds of shit out of them.

Am seriously thinking about leaving a good job with colleagues that I really like in an very specialist area, because I am asolutely sick of being walked all over by the evil nasty dept.

What do I do?

edit: but they are all really nice people who are kind to animals and small children

 

[equationgirl]

Start playing hardball at meetings.

Check previous minutes, raise the fact that you have sought on numerous occasions to have meetings with them about issue x but that they refuse to discuss it.

Leave meetings if points are not heard (note: helps if colleagues from your dept do this too), if agenda is not being stuck to, or if minutes are not accurate.

Leave meetings if meetings overrun.

Stop going to the daily meetings until your department's needs start being met.

Seems like they are acting like a nasty spoilt child throwing their rattle out of the pram all the time. Treat them with the disdain they deserve until they start coming back into line.

Keep going, and don;t give up.

 

[equationgirl]

Oh, and put everything in writing. Take telephone notes of interactions, keeps copies of emails and memos.

Above all, remain professional at all times, do not descend to their level. Your reasonable requests will soon be made all the more reasonable by their craziness.

And next time they suggest an absurd methodology, do a quick internet search and see if you kind find any article by someone respected that rubbishes it, then calmly point out their approach is antiquated and your original suggestion is industry standard (or some such equally valid point).

 

[scott_forester]

Hide behind process. I've found 'terms of reference' very very handy.

 

[Derian]

Hide behind process. I've found 'terms of reference' very very handy.

Absolutely. Other handy smokescreens are 'stakeholders', 'milestones' and 'critical path'.

 

[DrRingDing]

I have complained until I am blue in the face to my boss, who listens concernedly and has words with the head of evil nasty dept, when they promise never to be evil and nasty again. My boss constantly praises my dilligence, my patience and how important it is to be nice to evil nasty dept. But things are going seriously, seriously wrong. Everyone in the dept can see it, incl. the boss who insists on being nice rather than kicking seven kinds of shit out of them.

I think you should not waste your energy on these cunts it obviously has been getting you down.

To deal with arsehole depts you should put positive energy into forming a close knit team in your dept, this way you will not be wasting your energy for no reward as a good team is worth the effort.

The tighter the team the more resistant you will be to attacks not only that but attacks from outside should give the memebers of the team greater unity.

IMO you should stop moaning to your boss but when the evil dept starts causing problems just keep him bcc in on email ping pongs and then esculate particulary cuntish and unhelpful issues from the dept to him.

...and get to know your boss, go out with him/her be friends.

 

[scott_forester]

Absolutely. Other handy smokescreens are 'stakeholders', 'milestones' and 'critical path'.

'value add' is also a good one, getting people to rewrite a process so you do what they want is a great way of avoiding anything. I was once trapped in a room with some guy who had just passed his PMP project management exam. Three hours later the wall was plastered with post-its highlighting 'critical paths' and I had a headache.

Althought they aren't as bad as the guys who do sigma-six and get the 'black belt' the two I've met deserved a good beating.

 

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

Thanks for all the suggestions...but.. you dont understand, they are professionals at this with years of training

Start playing hardball at meetings

Check previous minutes, raise the fact that you have sought on numerous occasions to have meetings with them about issue x but that they refuse to discuss it..

They simply refuse to discuss it, tell me to set up a meeting to discuss it and then constantly re-arrange it, driving the departmental secretary up the wall. They play departments off against one another, blaming another department for why they cant do X, then you find that they have told that dept that they cant do it because of us and vice versa.

Leave meetings if points are not heard (note: helps if colleagues from your dept do this too), if agenda is not being stuck to, or if minutes are not accurate..

Leaving meetings does no good, as it lets them off the hook. This has been tried a couple of time, but it always backfires. Minutes are better, and I scrutinise them carefully - but they have an art form to writing minutes which commits them to nothing. When you challenge them, they say of course it is not stated because it is understood, and re-write it in an equally meaningless way. I feel stupid going to my boss over trivial differences in wording (like may instead of will) who will ring them up and get a verbal commitment which isnt worth the paper it isnt written on.

Leave meetings if meetings overrun..

I frequently have to do this to attend other meetings, but they have made fillibustering part of their job description.

Stop going to the daily meetings until your department's needs start being met..

I;ve never tried this, but I;ve seen the consequences with other departments. Basically they withdraw all support and then you have to fill in a mountain of paperwork to get it going again.

Oh, and put everything in writing. Take telephone notes of interactions, keeps copies of emails and memos. ..

Oh, yes. That I have learned. Very sound advice, if only to remind yourself that you are really sane and that you didnt imagine it all.

Above all, remain professional at all times, do not descend to their level. Your reasonable requests will soon be made all the more reasonable by their craziness.

Doesnt work at all. They talk entirely in management methodology speak, which seems to be the reason they have got away with this for so long, but it also hides all of the problems.

And next time they suggest an absurd methodology, do a quick internet search and see if you kind find any article by someone respected that rubbishes it, then calmly point out their approach is antiquated and your original suggestion is industry standard (or some such equally valid point).

This has a standard response..."Well, I see your knowledge of Absurd Management Methodology is vastly superior to that of the learned Dr Absurd., but I think that you will find that it is essential for this process. If you can find something better then once the business case is accepted by the Head of Dept Evil, we will evaluate it fairly"

One of the projects that I am currently working on is running THREE management methodologies (including Prince fucking 2) on a 6 month project. The appropriate docs and meetings have to be held for all of them

Hide behind process. I've found 'terms of reference' very very handy.

But this is what they do. Firstly there is no way I could ever compete with them, and secondly it doesnt actually get things done.

Seems like they are acting like a nasty spoilt child throwing their rattle out of the pram all the time.

Yup. Its really quite intolerable. They go on about not having the resources to do anything, yet turn up mob handed at any meeting that they think they will get shit at. Even an outside contractor (paid for by a contract which I won and they subsequently took over) who works in their department has commented about how it would be nice to work with grown ups (following a meeting (me versus 7 of them) where I was told to pull up a chair next to them so they could thump me among other oh-so-funny in-jokes)

 

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

...and 6 months ago in Department Evil

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=2927782&postcount=9

 

[Mrs Magpie]

Get another job, but before you go, detail all your concerns and send copies to the top bod and head of finance pointing out the vast sums Dept. Evil are wasting..

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

The dept I work for is a nice, friendly place, overseen by a kindly yet professional boss, who manages by consensus, has never been known to raise his voice and considers all angles before making a decision, keeping the priorities of the organisation at the forefront.

The dept I work with is an evil place full of macheavellian schemers, who do nothing unless in their own interests, pass off any fuck ups as other peoples fault, but seize credit for anything that goes well, appropriate budgets left, right and centre. Constantly re-schedule important meetings, yet insist on daily meetings in which nothing important is ever discussed as "this is not the arena" and have a series of stock responses of why things dont get done

• a lack of planning on the part of Dept Nice does not constitute an emergency on the part of Dept Nasty
• no work can be done on this {tiny trivial request} unless you have a relevant business case, a full project plan, comprehensive budget forecasts and requirements spec which have all been signed of by the head of Dept Evil
• Prince 2 management methodology/SCRUM management methodology/other management methodology that they just made up on the spot doesn't support this deviation from the objectives

The only common management of my dept and Dept Evil is the Chief Exec.

I have complained until I am blue in the face to my boss, who listens concernedly and has words with the head of evil nasty dept, when they promise never to be evil and nasty again. My boss constantly praises my dilligence, my patience and how important it is to be nice to evil nasty dept. But things are going seriously, seriously wrong. Everyone in the dept can see it, incl. the boss who insists on being nice rather than kicking seven kinds of shit out of them.

Am seriously thinking about leaving a good job with colleagues that I really like in an very specialist area, because I am asolutely sick of being walked all over by the evil nasty dept.

What do I do?

edit: but they are all really nice people who are kind to animals and small children

It's not a lot of info.

Are the areas in which things are going wrong, inside or outside of your area of job description: in other words, do you have valid reasons to be complaining, or are you meddling?

If, when the shit hits the fan, some of it will spray onto your lips, then the most important thing to do is CYA: cover your ass.

Make your concerns known to the people who should know, by way of email or memo, copies of which are saved by you in hardcopy.

This has the twofold effect of alerting people who should know, and of insulating you from accusations of neglect, etc.

 

[stereotypical]

What do I do?

Stay out of office politics

 

[equationgirl]

Is there any way you can cut department evil out of the loop and deal direct with the other departments?

Have you also dug out the company guidelines on bullying and harassment, as this sounds exactly like that? Might be worth having a word with you HR department.

 

[ICB]

IMO you should stop moaning to your boss but when the evil dept starts causing problems just keep him bcc in on email ping pongs and then esculate particulary cuntish and unhelpful issues from the dept to him.

Don't fuck around with bcc, it's incredibly divisive and can land you in a whole pile of shit. If you are considering doing this you should definitely discuss it with your boss first.

Besides, if your head of IT has their act together they will have specifically discouraged or forbidden internal bcc as part of your email aup. IME the only correct use of bcc is on external emails to a list of people who don't already have each other's details; in such cases it is essential in avoiding a DPA breach.

There are always problems like the ones you describe, you need the techiques to deal with them and protect yourself as described by others but if you won't be happy unless they change their behaviour then you should probably follow Mrs M's advice.

 

[kea]

a) get the members of your team together and reach a concensus about your inability to continue working with evil-team
b) also reach concensus that nice-boss has had plenty of time and has been pushed plenty enough, and should have sorted this out by now and has failed to, and hence your confidence in him as a manager is shot
c) get yourself nominated as team rep
d) take concensus group position as summarised in points a and b to the chief exec and inform him of your inability to work with evil-team, and your lack of confidence in nice-boss

of course, this could backfire massively and leave everyone thinking you're a manipulative bastard. but it COULD work!

 

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

Are the areas in which things are going wrong, inside or outside of your area of job description: in other words, do you have valid reasons to be complaining, or are you meddling?

I have wondered about this - but no. Mine is a new department doing a new function within the organisation. In order to function, it needs specific support. Within the organisation that support comes from Dept Evil - although others in the dept have avoided the prob by going to outside agencies this is against policy and not encouraged.

I am being encouraged to pursue this by by line manager and his line manager, both of whom appreciate that we should be dealing with Dept Evil rather than avoiding them. Dept Evil are dead against getting in outside support, one suggestion that this would ease pressure on thier resources was met with the head of Dept Evil screaming down the phone.

My line manager is sympathetic, but ultimately useless in terms of practical support with Dept Evil. Usually manages to extract apologies for their behaviour and empty promises, which they just totally disregard and carry on their own sweet way. The "thumping joke" was said by a Dept Evil member in a meeting directly after a phone call with my line manager about his unacceptable behaviour. After that I made an informal complaint about bullying (which is known to be rife within Dept Evil from escapees who have joined other depts) and it certainly got better for a short time, but its back as bad as ever, but more subtle and nothing so concrete that you can pin down.

Thanks for the advice on bccing as well. I had thought of that but dismissed it as likely to backfire - and again, its kindof game playing and I'm not really much good at that (would only end up copying one of my rants to my line manager to Head of Dept Evil)

I've applied for another job today. I've had enough, and writing it all down makes me realise how bad it actually is.

 

[Fledgling]

That's a shame but ultimately you don't want to go through crap every day.

The only thing I can think of is to simply explain really clearly why you're pissed off at certain people to those certain people. Don't be rude, just be very direct and explain why their actions make things difficult. Perosnally I see work as a job that needs doing ni the most efficient way. If that isn't happening becuase of some staff then they're the problem and need talking too.

Causing difficulties isn't a real bad thing, my boss can do that. But his attitude is good, if that slips they need a seriously good talking to.

Of course if you're leaving you can say what you want, no holding back!

 

[citydreams]

Model Answer

One of the questions constantly asked at managment interviews is "give an example of when something didn't work, and what you did about it"

Kea's is the model answer. If you care about your job you are morally obliged to do this.

a) get the members of your team together and reach a concensus about your inability to continue working with evil-team
b) also reach concensus that nice-boss has had plenty of time and has been pushed plenty enough, and should have sorted this out by now and has failed to, and hence your confidence in him as a manager is shot
c) get yourself nominated as team rep
d) take concensus group position as summarised in points a and b to the chief exec and inform him of your inability to work with evil-team, and your lack of confidence in nice-boss

If you don't you may lose your job as they cut the dead wood

Personally, I would go to the chief exec 1st and briefly explain that there is a problem and what you are doing about it

 

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

Kea's is the model answer.

ooooh! Scarey.

There is already a departmental consensus that this is a significant and growing problem and the team is quite a strong one. No probs either about being nominated team rep. The phrase "we're right behind you" is well known as they peek nervously at Dept Evil from over my shoulder.

Thing I dont like about this is the no-confidence in our manager. He is a very good manager in many, many ways. In fact this is part of the prob. - he goes entirely by textbook methods, but he doesnt seem to realise that I am not dealing with normal work colleagues here. I am dealing with barely disguised sociopaths* hell bent on making my life a misery. My manager believes that everyone is ultimately trying to do their best, pull together and work things out. My manager is an innocent in a cruel world.

I have a feeling that I could probably cover my own arse were I to go the the Chief Exec (whose first act on getting the job was a re-organisation of Dept Evil), but have a feeling that the shit will hit my manager.

*who are kind to animals and small children

 

[Pingu]

k

first question

is the project suffering as a result of this?

second question

how much is the project slipping?

third question

what is the estimated cost per day for the project?

fourthly

do you know who the project sponsor\budget holder is?

fithly

are they ok?

If the answer to 5 is yes then let them know how much money (i.e. their budget) is being wasted.

light blue touch paper and retire to safe distance



project sponsors\budget holders have the ultimate authority when it comes to projects. if their budgets are being wasted they tend to start kicking butt

I did this on a datacentre project where pointless admin was killing the project. Controls are neccesary but PM is there to get the project done.. not to hinder it. Once the budget holder found out that his project was likely to come in 4.5 million over budet for no reason other than people fucking about with process things changed rapidly.

however

make sure your own arse id both covered and cleaner than a clean thing on display at the Mr Clean convention

 

[equationgirl]

If you can't do your job, because you are actively presented from doing so by a.n.other(s) ,couldn't that constitute constructive dismissal?

So, if your whole team can't function, and could potentially be filing constructive dismissal lawsuits, including your boss, because Team Evil are deliberately preventing your team working, then I'm sure the Chief Exec would like to know before mass filings take place, rather than afterwards.

Just a thought.....

Are you involved in a union?

 

[kea]

He is a very good manager in many, many ways.
...
My manager is an innocent in a cruel world.

yeah but it's his job to sort this or at least make the chief exec fully aware of it. if he hasn't done either of those things then he's failing in his job. sorry, but it's true. if you know for sure that he hasn't informed the chief exec of the seriousness of the problem then you could (as the team rep) sit down with him and say 'look, please take this to the chief exec cos none of us are coping and if you don't, we'll have to' - that'd at least be a way of giving him a chance. but if he doesn't/won't then you really should bypass him and go to the chief exec.

 

[Brainaddict]

OT but it's interesting to consider how departments develop different 'characters' like this. I wonder how much it is to do with the heads of dept?

 

[kea]

I wonder how much it is to do with the heads of dept?

our department's character is more to do with our deputy head of department, but that could be cos the HoD isn't around very much.