Intelligent Design

[Shippou-Sensei]

i dunno just because a species has undergone great environmental change does not mean it is better suited to adaptation the path it took to survive the last change may leave it weak against changes in the future.


but i agree that primate inteligence which places survival tools outside the body is a fantastic trick, especially as this means the survival tool can be adapted within time-scales incomparable to evolutionary ones

(i say primate rather than human because the more we look the more we see tool and "language" use in other primates)

 

[littlebabyjesus]

... not forgetting crows:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/04/0423_030423_crowtools.html



They make three different kinds of tool out of leaves, depending on the hole they want to get into:

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

Don't be a fool. What makes you think we have stopped? It's a very very very slow process.

it would be a laugh (i a sense) if the human race was suddenly killed off by a particularly nasty flu strain

i guess that would make rna viruses the most evolved form of life

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

... not forgetting crows:

and cows

 

[littlebabyjesus]

And this isn't some random act. At some time in the not-to-distant past an individual genius crow made the breakthrough in tool design, perfecting the tapered edge, and passed this knowledge on. There are significant cultural differences in the tool-making of different populations of crows. Crows can see materials such as wire that they've never encountered before, and make hooks out of them to pick up food. They are genuinely examining the situation before them and working out solutions, not adapting methods that they've used before in a process of trial and error. I've known humans who aren't this clever.

My favourite crow story is that of a crow that was the pet of a scientist. He would feed his crow on a mush made of powder and water. One day, the absent-minded scientist forgot to add water to the powder, so the crow went over to the sink, picked out a suitable receptacle, poured itself some water and made its own dinner.

 

[kyser_soze]

I've known humans who aren't this clever.

The 5 million who read the Sun and Daily Mail to start with...

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

it would be a laugh (i a sense) if the human race was suddenly killed off by a particularly nasty flu strain

i guess that would make rna viruses the most evolved form of life

Ha, a very good point

 

[goldenecitrone]

And this isn't some random act. At some time in the not-to-distant past an individual genius crow made the breakthrough in tool design, perfecting the tapered edge, and passed this knowledge on. There are significant cultural differences in the tool-making of different populations of crows. Crows can see materials such as wire that they've never encountered before, and make hooks out of them to pick up food. They are genuinely examining the situation before them and working out solutions, not adapting methods that they've used before in a process of trial and error. I've known humans who aren't this clever.

My favourite crow story is that of a crow that was the pet of a scientist. He would feed his crow on a mush made of powder and water. One day, the absent-minded scientist forgot to add water to the powder, so the crow went over to the sink, picked out a suitable receptacle, poured itself some water and made its own dinner.

There are some clever crows up on Hampstead Heath. It can be a little unsettling watching them watching you sometimes. Like watching a dinosaur that's evolved over millions of years.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

There are some clever crows up on Hampstead Heath. It can be a little unsettling watching them watching you sometimes. Like watching a dinosaur that's evolved over millions of years.

And how they've evolved.

Until very recently, it was thought birds must be relatively stupid as they have a small cerebral cortex (the part of the brain that gives us our powerful thinking). But it is now thought that they use a different part of the brain for their thinking, the medio-rostral neostriatum/hyperstriatum ventrale.

We're only just beginning to appreciate the wonders going on inside the brains of other animals - for too long humans have been blinded to the possibilities by the idiocy that is the belief that humans are special. There are posters on this forum who demonstrate the persistence of this wrong-headed thinking. But Descartes' automata are coming alive.

 

[kyser_soze]

Would it be worth asking whether primate researchers are having a cultural impact on their subjects? I mean, recently we've heard about previously unseen langage/tool making stuff with the chimps - could the long term presence of the researchers be acting as a stimulator to the primates to alter their behaviour?

 

[Crispy]

Would it be worth asking whether primate researchers are having a cultural impact on their subjects? I mean, recently we've heard about previously unseen langage/tool making stuff with the chimps - could the long term presence of the researchers be acting as a stimulator to the primates to alter their behaviour?

Without a doubt, imo.