Athos
Well-Known Member
What proportion of CSA is carried out by grooming gangs? Why arbitrarily prioritise addressing that sort of offending over other CSA? Most CSA is carried out by white men; why not focus attention there?
Institutional misogyny
- Thread starter Marty1
- Start date
What proportion of CSA is carried out by grooming gangs? Why arbitrarily prioritise addressing that sort of offending over other CSA? Most CSA is carried out by white men; why not focus attention there?
JimW
支那暗杀团
Yep, it seems the shared Pakistani heritage affects the form these men's noncery takes, the grooming gangs, but noncery in and of itself is no more prevalent. So if you make it about "race" you're actually obscuring the issue - and the salient aspects are not ethnicity or religion so much as kinship/place-of-origin networks, though fair enough they all get entangled.
Sasaferrato
Super Refuser!
You have just crystallised my thoughts on this.
I'm finding it hard to understand Athos's view though.
friendofdorothy
Solidarity against neoliberalism!
Lets discuss this from the point of view of why no one is putting the protection, care and justice for abused girls at the centre of their concern. No one listened. The police chose not to proscecute even though they knew there where more girls at danger and more men abusing out there. The system utterly failed these girls.
This is cultural misogengy continuing.
This is cultural misogengy continuing.
Proper Tidy
Arsed
I think class and how the girls were perceived by police, social workers, care workers, teachers etc is the fundamental reason why nobody was arsed digging any deeper or trying to protect them but I don't think the common (not exclusive) cultural background of the abusers is irrelevant, including in context of why others around the abusers turned a blind eye. It wasn't all hidden away, kids were socialising and being abused in kebab shops etc, this was partially out in the open. I accept that the nighttime worker thing probably plays a part, and I dunno how to phrase it well but the best I can do is the same phrasing I used a while back - a misplaced sense of cultural solidarity, or perhaps communalist defensiveness, I dunno. It shouldn't be verboten to talk about this shit anyway. No one culture or ethnic group is more or less likely to contain abusers obviously but the forms it takes can differ, why not discuss it and explore it
friendofdorothy
Solidarity against neoliberalism!
Police have a terrible record in protecting girls and women. I really don't think they have progressed beyond thinking in terms of whore / virgins with all the cultural implications that entails. This sounds like yet more of the same old victim blaming to me. Our law enforcers have a long tradition of blaming women and girls for the crimes that men commit. Reminds me of the 'moral' assumptions police routinely made about 'bad' women (working class out on their own) that the Yorkshire Ripper killed, not taking it seriously until a 'nice' girl from a 'good family' was killed (ie middle class university student).
As a society I think we have a weird split opinion of children as both innocent / evil - and open to be arrested and criminised from the age of 10 rather than protected.
As a society I think we have a weird split opinion of children as both innocent / evil - and open to be arrested and criminised from the age of 10 rather than protected.
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Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Hi Athos , I'm Kris.
Are you arguing that the law is incorrect? Which parts please? That Yours is reasonable perspective favoured by some but rejected by many. What are you talking about?
You are a problem if you genuinely think what you write here has import.
you’ve offered nothing but spirited waffle but apparently you are a lawyer. Well there’s a thing.
Are you arguing that the law is incorrect? Which parts please? That Yours is reasonable perspective favoured by some but rejected by many. What are you talking about?
You are a problem if you genuinely think what you write here has import.
you’ve offered nothing but spirited waffle but apparently you are a lawyer. Well there’s a thing.
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Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
So this is completely down to the police and nothing to do with the Labour councils, politicians, and welfare systems under whose watch this was swept under the carpets. It's all about class and fuck all to do with muslim paedophiles who think that young white girls are kaffir and therefore lesser people and fair game, on top of their religiously sanctioned misoginy.
Athos thinks so.
Move along. Nothing significant here. There are white paedos too, so the fact that thousands of kids are being raped by Pakistani gangs is unworthy of attention.
Fuck off Ella. Nothing special about you, according to Athos.
Well done that man.Athos said:
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Athos
Well-Known Member
Spymaster (and 'Kris'), I won't answer these posts point by point, not least if all because I can't follow a lot of what you're saying. But happy to summarise my position as follows.
I've seen no reliable evidence that race was a factor in the motivation, means, or opportunity for these crimes. And nobody is able to suggest how race is valuable in detection and prosecution, or in prevention. As such, giving undue prominence to it any analysis risks missing the important lessons (as well as providing cover for racists).
I've seen no reliable evidence that race was a factor in the motivation, means, or opportunity for these crimes. And nobody is able to suggest how race is valuable in detection and prosecution, or in prevention. As such, giving undue prominence to it any analysis risks missing the important lessons (as well as providing cover for racists).
dessiato
4 years and I still cry sometimes
Athos speaking from my personal experience.
When I lived wholly in the UK I worked in a large office that was approximately 85% Indian, Pakistani and Sri Lankan. The men were mainly misogynist and anti white racists. They would talk about trying to pick up and fuck young white girls. Their attitude was that they could do as they pleased with them because they were young white girls and therefore of no consequence. They would be sexually abusive to and harrassing the white girls. Talking to them and explaining that this was unacceptable would result in them claiming racism, going to their boss who would then accuse me of racism.
They had a more respectful attitude to the Asian girls who were not seen so much as sexual objects but as marriage "material."
Interestingly the Hindu population did not treat women badly, whatever the ethnicity. In my experience, including my time living in a country under sharia law, the Muslim men were the worse.
As a result of my experience I believe there is a strong link between race and religion when it comes to this type of crime. I think this is very closely linked to the way some Muslim boys are taught that white girls are not worthy of respect, so whatever they do to them is OK.
Again drawing from my experience this is taught to the boys from an early age. They are definitely not taught this about Muslim girls and women. Rather it is the opposite.
Of course this is not all Asian men, not all Muslims, and not only Asian or Muslim men.
And, of course, only my experience.
But this attitude does seem rife in Asian Muslim community.
When I lived wholly in the UK I worked in a large office that was approximately 85% Indian, Pakistani and Sri Lankan. The men were mainly misogynist and anti white racists. They would talk about trying to pick up and fuck young white girls. Their attitude was that they could do as they pleased with them because they were young white girls and therefore of no consequence. They would be sexually abusive to and harrassing the white girls. Talking to them and explaining that this was unacceptable would result in them claiming racism, going to their boss who would then accuse me of racism.
They had a more respectful attitude to the Asian girls who were not seen so much as sexual objects but as marriage "material."
Interestingly the Hindu population did not treat women badly, whatever the ethnicity. In my experience, including my time living in a country under sharia law, the Muslim men were the worse.
As a result of my experience I believe there is a strong link between race and religion when it comes to this type of crime. I think this is very closely linked to the way some Muslim boys are taught that white girls are not worthy of respect, so whatever they do to them is OK.
Again drawing from my experience this is taught to the boys from an early age. They are definitely not taught this about Muslim girls and women. Rather it is the opposite.
Of course this is not all Asian men, not all Muslims, and not only Asian or Muslim men.
And, of course, only my experience.
But this attitude does seem rife in Asian Muslim community.
tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
Except there has also been widescale abuse of young boys in the British public school system. Upper class males, but particularly vulnerable, because like the girls here they lived in institutions isolated from family networks.
And of course, at least when I was growing up, there was an awful lot of casual abuse going on in schools and youth organisations in general; mostly ignored by society.
Athos
Well-Known Member
I suspect you're right that there are differing levels of misogyny between (as well as within) communities. But, even if your anecdotes were supported by empirical evidence, how does that help with the investigation/prosecution or prevention of child sexual abuse? Unless you're actually claiming that Muslim men are more likely to be child abusers than, say, white men, such that resources should be targeted at that community? I'd be interested in any evidence for that.
ElizabethofYork
Old Crone
dessiato
4 years and I still cry sometimes
I have no empirical evidence, I do believe that, from my experience, there is a high possibility that Muslim men are likely to become sexual abusers. They would openly boast about trying to find young white girls to fuck and how they had, as well as what they'd done with the girls.
I believe that there needs to be a concerted effort to educate all men that this is a wholly unacceptable crime.
Athos
Well-Known Member
More likely than other men?
Me too. A response CSA to which race is irrelevant.
tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
Yes, all those Muslim Catholic Clergy; the ones in the music industry and of course the sex tourists flying of to Asia and Latin America
dessiato
4 years and I still cry sometimes
Poot
My wife thinks I work too hard
dessiato
4 years and I still cry sometimes
If you judge them by what they say, possibly. But as has been pointed out earlier in the thread there are two main types of abuser here.
Proper Tidy
Arsed
Yes its about the availability of victims and the context in which there is an expectation they won't turn to authority or be acknowledged if they do. But in the case of the victims of grooming gangs (not all or even a majority of the victims were in care homes or institutions btw) this availability and context is entirely class related, and in particular the point that some kids aren't allowed to be kids, they aren't treated as kids or innocents. The point about institutionalised kids being particularly at risk is a good point though.
Btw there was a fairly recent grooming case in wrexham - girls being picked up from children's homes, staff aware, given drink and drugs and made to feel complicit and dependent, believed the abusers were boyfriends, allegations they were turned out to other men. The abusers weren't british pakistani though, they were travellers. The communalism and fragmentation of society into cultural groups is the common denominator I suppose.
Btw there was a fairly recent grooming case in wrexham - girls being picked up from children's homes, staff aware, given drink and drugs and made to feel complicit and dependent, believed the abusers were boyfriends, allegations they were turned out to other men. The abusers weren't british pakistani though, they were travellers. The communalism and fragmentation of society into cultural groups is the common denominator I suppose.
Poot
My wife thinks I work too hard
Although, actually, I don't have all the stats about whether it was reported at the time and whether anyone was believed, or in fact whether they didn't report it because they didn't attach enough value to themselves, didn't see it as abuse etc. I just really hope that we are getting to a time when we've stopped blaming victims, because social media is going to make this a whole lot more difficult.
Manter
Lunch Mob
//snip
Worth being clear about this (because the far right have used it!)- grooming gang doesn’t exist as a legal category, and there is very little data in breakdown of offences by race: it seems to be recorded mainly when the answer is ‘not white’. When does a group become a grooming gang? No one seems clear....
The below is a very clear summary of the controversy- both academic authorities like Cockbain and professionals like the brilliant Rochdale prosecutor Nazir Afwal have reservations about statements like that.
We’re told 84% of grooming gangs are Asian. But where’s the evidence? | Kenan Malik
Bickering over a disputed report shows how little we know about the perpetrators
bimble
floofy
Nothing is actually about race, and i think religion's a dead end too (imo) . To me seems obvious that if you live in /come from a social reality where sex outside of marriage is completely verboten (apart from possibly via prostitution) that messes people up, especially in relation to perceptions of women who do not live in that reality.
Poot
My wife thinks I work too hard
Another uncomfortable fact is that nearly all of the abusers are men. So whilst we're looking at who the perpetrators are, that seems to be the one characteristic that no one is mentioning. Groups of men. Maybe groups where women are less visible, but groups of men nonetheless. Surely that should be a starting point.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
I think that's gone unmentioned because it's accepted as obvious.
dessiato
4 years and I still cry sometimes
I think that women are a small minority in this crime. That is not to say they don’t abuse nor that they don’t assist in procurement, simply that men are the majority here.
Proper Tidy
Arsed
Men are always the majority in sexual abuse of children and adults though, it's very clearly a factor and any analysis or understanding of why abuse happens has to take account of fact that it is overwhelmingly men who put their own gratification above treating others with humanity
Athos
Well-Known Member
//snip
Worth being clear about this (because the far right have used it!)- grooming gang doesn’t exist as a legal category, and there is very little data in breakdown of offences by race: it seems to be recorded mainly when the answer is ‘not white’. When does a group become a grooming gang? No one seems clear....
The below is a very clear summary of the controversy- both academic authorities like Cockbain and professionals like the brilliant Rochdale prosecutor Nazir Afwal have reservations about statements like that.
We’re told 84% of grooming gangs are Asian. But where’s the evidence? | Kenan Malik
Bickering over a disputed report shows how little we know about the perpetratorswww.theguardian.com
Yes, good point. I was wrongly conflating the gangs we've recently seen exposed with the wider phenomenon of group sexual exploitation.
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